9$J$

B e a i n n i n a o f S i d e A: E v e r y t h i n g i n a u o t a t i o n marks were
q u e s t i o n s o r statements made by the i n t e r v i e w e r s .

either

...where the s c h o o l was because t h e r e were a bunch of Manitoba
maples i n the corner t h e r e where my mother had p l a n t e d them about
1918 when she was a t e a c h e r .
Well t h a t was the extent of my
e d u c a t i o n i n t h i s d i s t r i c t because we went away a f t e r t h a t and I
f i n i s h e d my p u b l i c s c h o o l and high s c h o o l i n q u i t e a few d i f f e r e n t
s c h o o l s because my mother was a teacher and we used t o qo around
from one s c h o o l t o another,
as t e a c h e r s d i d i n those days.
F i n a l l y , I went t o Normal s c h o o l i n Edmonton and taught f o r about
f i v e o r s i x y e a r s , e a s t of Edmonton, and then I came back t o t h i s
district.
The f i r s t s c h o o l I taught here was Windinq T r a i l which
i s the s c h o o l j u s t west of B a p t i s t Lake, about a mile west. I t was
a brand new s c h o o l ; t h i s was i n 1934, I quess i t was 1933 when we
s t a r t e d i t . I t was a l l made of l o g s and a l l the f u r n i t u r e , desk and
e v e r y t h i n g , were home made and everybody i n the d i s t r i c t put i n
t h e i r time working on i t because nobody had any money, but they
d i d n ' t mind working. So they got the s c h o o l and I got the job.
When I got t o s c h o o l the f i r s t day I found I had about 25 p u p i l s
and out of the 25 about 20 had never been t o s c h o o l b e f o r e .
They
were a l l qrade one and they were a l l aqes from s i x up t o 15. So I
had q u i t e a time t h e r e but i t wasn't too bad; qot them s t r a i q h t e n e d
out a f t e r a w h i l e — p r o m o t e d some of them before the end of the
year, even qot someone i n t o qrade t h r e e . And then I moved over t o
Tawatinaw s c h o o l which i s southeast of Athabasca, not near the town
of Tawatinaw, but i t ' s about halfway between Athabasca and C o l i n t o n
and about two m i l e s e a s t ; used t o be a s c h o o l . I t ' s up on top of
the h i l l t h e r e . You d r i v e down the o l d hiqhway, i f you're ever down
t h a t way.
You see a c r o s s the r a i l w a y t r a c k t h e r e ' s a b i q h i l l
r i s i n q t h e r e and the s c h o o l i s on top of t h a t .
That was a n i c e
s c h o o l . I tauqht t h e r e f o r f o u r years, and I enjoyed i t very much.
I t was I t h i n k the f a v o u r i t e s c h o o l I ever tauqht.
When I went
t h e r e , t h e r e were about 20, or somethinq more than 20 p u p i l s and
a l l the qrades from one t o t e n . So you can imaqine a teacher was
p r e t t y busy i n those days.
"You were the only teacher i n the s c h o o l ? "
I was the only teacher, yes.
" A l l i n the same qrade?"
had q u i t e a job on your hands, but you qot used t o i t .

Well,

you

"What was the populationwhen you came?"
Of the d i s t r i c t ? "No, of your s c h o o l ? " The school i t s e l f was about
25 p u p i l s . "For t e n qrades?" For ten qrades. Some qrades only had
one. Grade t e n was only one.
They were a l l seemed t o be t h i s
l i t t l e bunch of f o u r or f i v e beqinners, you know, and they took
about h a l f your time. "So, you tauqht them a l l t o q e t h e r , s o r t of
went around?" Oh no, you j u s t had t o run around from one qrade t o
the next and make sure they had enouqh work t o do u n t i l you qot
back a q a i n . You c o u l d n ' t spend more than about f i v e or t e n minutes
with any c l a s s . And then you had t o always be watchinq these l i t t l e
quys because they'd run out of somethinq t o do and they d i d n ' t know
what t o do next.
The b i q q e r ones, w e l l they c o u l d look a f t e r
themselves. "Was i t a one room s c h o o l ? " Yeah. You c o u l d n ' t hide,

anyway. What I mean t o say, i s i f they weren't busy working a t i t
I soon n o t i c e d i t . But we got along f i n e ; i t worked out a l l r i g h t .
But i t was hard on the h i g h g r a d e s — i t ' s hard t o teach h i g h s c h o o l
under those c o n d i t i o n s because you can't g i v e enough i n s t r u c t i o n
time f o r t h e p u p i l s . I t was l i k e t h a t every year though. I t h i n k I
got as h i g h as t e a c h i n g grade eleven t h e r e . They had passed t h e i r
examination—they
a l l had examinations
i n those
days, the
departmentals.
They s t i l l wanted t o go t o s c h o o l but they c o u l d n ' t
go out o f town because t h e r e were no s c h o o l busses, no money o r
a n y t h i n g i n those days.
" I t went up t o grade twelve as i t does
now?" W e l l , I never d i d teach any grade twelve. I t h i n k they had
some k i n d o f r u l e t h a t they have t o go t o h i g h s c h o o l f o r grade
twelve. But I d i d teach grade eleven. You see, a s c h o o l t e a c h e r i n
those days o n l y got... I t h i n k was g e t t i n g $700 a year i n t h a t
school...and I remember a t Winding T r a i l I was g e t t i n g $700 a year
and I was supposed t o do the j a n i t o r work too.
So anybody came
l a t e t o s c h o o l was sweeping the f l o o r a f t e r w a r d s . . . I d i d n ' t sweep
i t v e r y o f t e n myself.
"What was the c o s t o f l i v i n g there? Quite high? Could you manage a t
$700?" W e l l . . . f i r s t l y , I d i d have a c a r once i n a w h i l e — I mean,
when I c o u l d g e t i t running.
But mostly we d i d n ' t go very f a r
though, j u s t t o town and b a c k — o n c e a week maybe; maybe not even
t h a t towards t h e end o f the month. G r o c e r i e s : I used t o f i g u r e
about $10 a week f o r g r o c e r i e s . I was l i v i n g i n a teacherage by
myself t h e r e .
"I've heard some o f those teacherages weren't e x a c t l y t h e most
i d e a l c o n d i t i o n s t o l i v e i n , what was i t l i k e ? " W e l l , i n those days
we thought they were, now you wouldn't. Now you'd c a l l i t slum o r
something. "Can you d e s c r i b e i t ? " But, the one I had t h e r e were
two rooms and i t d i d n ' t have any l i n i n g but the w a l l s were t i g h t ;
so they had b u i l d i n g paper o r something i n between two p l i e s of
l u m b e r — t h e r e was no l i n i n g on the i n s i d e — s o , I got t o work and
got a l o t o l d c a r t o n s and t h i n g s and l i n e d the i n s i d e of i t .
The
chairman o f the s c h o o l board came around and he thought i t looked
b e t t e r w i t h paper over i t , so the school board bought me some paper
and I put paper on t o p o f the cardboards. But i t made i t a l i t t l e
warmer anyway. F i r s t we j u s t had a cook stove t o keep i t warm—
sometimes an a i r t i g h t h e a t e r .
"How about s l e e p i n g f a c i l i t i e s and washing?" You had t o l u g your
own water i n from t h e pump which was i n the s c h o o l yard u s u a l l y .
They had a bed t h e r e — i t was a l l s u p p l i e d , j u s t p a r t o f the
f u r n i t u r e — w h i c h u s u a l l y had a saggy s p r i n g i n i t and a couple of
h o l e s i n the mattress, but nobody around had anything much b e t t e r
anyway. "And the t e a c h e r l i v e d r i g h t by the s c h o o l ? " Right beside
the s c h o o l . . w e l l w i t h i n a hundred f e e t of the s c h o o l , u s u a l l y . "So
r e a l l y the teacher was p r i n c i p a l , teacher, s u p e r v i s o r , j a n i t o r ,
e v e r y t h i n g a t the s c h o o l ? "
You were e v e r y t h i n g , yeah.
You were
t o t a l l y r e s p o n s i b l e . Of course, some s c h o o l s had t h e i r problems and
some used t o always be f i g h t i n g and f i r i n g teachers and so
on..but..I enjoyed i t . . t h a t p a r t of i t . I d i d n ' t enjoy the pay very
much..it d i d n ' t seem l i k e you were ever g e t t i n g anywhere.

"So where was your next move a f t e r ? "
W e l l , I stayed t h e r e u n t i l
about 1938 and t h a t was t h e year they s t a r t e d the s c h o o l d i v i s i o n .
They s l i d a l l t h e s c h o o l s together i n s t e a d o f having each separate
d i s t r i c t w i t h i t s own s c h o o l board; and they had t h e one s c h o o l
board i n C o l i n t o n . They looked over t h e i r r e c o r d and they saw me up
t h e r e and I've been t h e r e f o r f o u r years and everybody thought I
was doing a l l r i g h t so they s a i d w e l l we b e t t e r make him p r i n c i p a l
of some p l a c e . I d i d n ' t p a r t i c u l a r l y want t o move but then I went
to H o y v i l l e s c h o o l , they had a t u t o r i n g t h e r e o r so they c a l l e d i t .
But a c t u a l l y what they got from the second room was an o l d
farmhouse up on t o p o f t h e h i l l and they c a l l e d i t the haunted
house.
I was t h e r e f o r t h r e e y e a r s . "How many t e a c h e r s a t t h a t
s c h o o l ? One? Two?" Not t o o many, I t h i n k the most they ever had
t h e r e was about f i f t e e n , i t was j u s t i n between twelve and f i f t e e n
and I taught from grade seven up t i l l grade e l e v e n . "So what was
the p o p u l a t i o n o f t h a t s c h o o l ? " The j u n i o r room had a l o t o f k i d s
there—they
must have had about
thirty.
But they gave me
e v e r y t h i n g , from grade seven up.
"But how d i d you g e t f i f t e e n
t e a c h e r s ? " "That's what I was wondering. Before you had y o u r s e l f
and 25 s t u d e n t s , and now you're g e t t i n g 15 t e a c h e r s f o r how many
students?"
Oh no, I had f i f t e e n p u p i l s . "Oh I see. I see. Yeah.
*Well I wasn't t h e o n l y t e a c h e r , t h e r e was a teacher down i n the
o t h e r room. The other room was t h e r e g u l a r school t h a t had been
t h e r e . They decided t o make a second room t h e r e . Then a f t e r t h r e e
years o f course t h e war was on then, so I went i n t h e army. I was
i n t h e army about t h r e e years and I began t o wonder whether I
wanted t o go back t o t e a c h i n g s c h o o l o r not and thought i t would be
n i c e t o be out i n t h e f r e s h a i r , so I s a i d I ' l l wait a year o r two
b e f o r e I go back anyway—never have gone back.
"So what happened t o education d u r i n g t h e war?" No, t h a t ' s a l l I
taught i n t h i s p a r t o f t h e country. I taught about s i x years
elsewhere b e f o r e I came here. "Did the women teach o r what happened
then?" Oh yes, yes, i n those days t h e town o f Athabasca had a
s e p a r a t e s c h o o l , a l l by i t s e l f , with t h e i r own school board; and
they had a r u l e t h a t they would h i r e women t o teach, t h a t ' s s i n g l e
women but i f they g o t married they'd f i r e them. "When t h e war was
going on d i d they s t i l l have s c h o o l s running?" Oh yes, y e s . "And
the women must have mostly, taught then?" They c l o s e d some l i k e the
room I was t e a c h i n g a t the '^aVv±4fte, they c l o s e d t h a t when I l e f t ,
they d i d n ' t g e t another t e a c h e r . I t h i n k a few o t h e r s l i k e t h a t .
They had a l i t t l e t r o u b l e g e t t i n g t e a c h e r s , they had t o use what
they c a l l e d s u p e r v i s o r s f o r a while but somebody with a grade 11 o r
12 e d u c a t i o n c o u l d j u s t go i n t o s c h o o l and s u p e r v i s e correspondence
l e s s o n s . "But what happened t o education i t s e l f d u r i n g t h e war, d i d
the p r i o r i t y go r i g h t i n t o the (basement?)...?"
No, i t j u s t went
on much t h e same. They d i d n ' t change t h e s c h o o l s much. There
weren't any b i g changes u n t i l a few years a f t e r the war when they
began t o take t h e busses and c l o s e t h e r u r a l s c h o o l s and take the
busses i n t o town. "And I can imagine t h e farmers and so on must
have supported t h i s b u s s i n g , because i t was b r i n g i n g them roads and

so on?" Yeah, oh t h e r e was u s u a l l y a b i g f i g h t about i t i n every
d i s t r i c t , some wanted i t and some d i d n ' t . They l i k e d t h e i r own
s c h o o l s and t h e i r own t e a c h e r . The k i d s went t o town they d i d n ' t
have v e r y much t o say about i t anymore; but i t came a l i t t l e by
l i t t l e . . . t h e s c h o o l s c l o s e r t o town f i r s t . And I remember when they
changed Winding T r a i l and took the bus i n s t e a d of running the
s c h o o l — i t was about 1950 I guess. "So when they had these busses
they must have had more students you know, t o make i t f e a s i b l e t o
run a bus?"
W e l l , I imagine they p i c k e d up some from another
s c h o o l , I'm not s u r e . You see they'd run down the highway and p i c k
up k i d s t h e r e t h a t probably would have gone t o B a p t i s t e Lake s c h o o l
and West Athabasca s c h o o l — b e t w e e n here and town—and I t h i n k they
p i c k e d up some o f t h e k i d s from t h e r e .
"Did
you ever t h i n k i n those days t h a t you'd be having students
from Smith and Rochester going t o Athabasca?" No, they d i d n ' t
expect t h a t ; when they were t a k i n g t h i s s c h o o l i n t h a t was what
most o f t h e argument was about: w e l l t h a t ' s t o o f a r , t o o f a r f o r
those k i d s t o r i d e . You know, t h i s i s o n l y twelve m i l e s . Now we're
r i d i n g two o r t h r e e times t h a t .
I don't know whether i t ' s a good
t h i n g o r not but I guess t h e y ' r e doing i t anyway. "What a r e your
views on t h e education system now as compared t o . . ? " Today? "Yeah."
Well I'm not i n a p o s i t i o n t o comment. I had a young g i r l working
i n t h e s t o r e here two o r t h r e e years ago, and I used t o teach her
mother i n s c h o o l . And she was always d i g g i n g up..well what k i n d of
student was mother, you know, t e l l me about her. And f i n a l l y I l e t
her have i t . I says w e l l I t e l l you what, i f your mother had had
the chances t h a t you've g o t now, t h e k i n d o f s c h o o l s , t h e k i n d o f
t e a c h e r s , and t h e amount o f i n s t r u c t i o n , she would have been an
honor student; she would have beaten you i n every way. But her
mother d i d n ' t have t h a t chance. The chance i s t h e r e f o r anybody
nowadays, you have t o take advantage of i t .
"Kids wanted t o go t o s c h o o l then or what, o r d i d l i f e out o f farms
remain b e t t e r than g e t t i n g an education?" You mean, how d i d they
f e e l about s c h o o l ? "Yeah." W e l l , I t h i n k i n the country d i s t r i c t s
s c h o o l was one o f t h e main sources o f entertainment. I f you d i d n ' t
go t o s c h o o l , t h e r e ' s n o t h i n g happening. Of course some o f them
d i d n ' t l i k e t o study j u s t l i k e nowadays, you know. But then you
c o u l d p l a y b a l l and you c o u l d other t h i n g s as long as you g o t along
w i t h t h e t e a c h e r and you c o u l d g e t by with a c e r t a i n amount of
work. "So i t was compulsory?"
But then you'd f i n d most o f the
boys, when they were g e t t i n g up around 15, were ready t o q u i t . They
were allowed t o q u i t a t 1 5 — t h e odd one wanted t o go one, but I
guess about 75 o r 80 percent would g u i t when they were 15 years
old.
"Well, a f t e r s c h o o l , i n the r u r a l areas d i d they get absorbed
back i n t o the farms o r d i d k i d s t h a t needed education go t o the
urban a r e a s ? " Very few, very few. Once you l e f t t h e country s c h o o l
you got t h e education you p i c k e d up and maybe your d a i l y l i f e which
was q u i t e a b i t t o o . You'd be s u r p r i s e d how many of these people
t h a t a r e runninq companies and t h i n q s today o n l y have qrade e i q h t
or n i n e i n some r u r a l s c h o o l . "So a f t e r s c h o o l you went back t o
the farm?" W e l l , a f t e r s c h o o l yes. I would say most o f those k i d s
had t o walk t o s c h o o l and t h a t was..even i f you were w i t h i n a m i l e

you f i g u r e t h a t was n o t h i n g . Quite a few would walk so much as two
m i l e s , some even more, t h r e e m i l e s ; some would come t o c l a s s e s
or..."But a f t e r s c h o o l , I mean d a i l y a f t e r s c h o o l , . . . ? "
Oh you
mean a f t e r they graduated o r whatever you c a l l i t ? "Yeah d i d they
get absorbed back..."
You had t o be f i f t e e n o r grade e i g h t , I
t h i n k i t was. They'd go on the farm and work f o r a while u n l e s s
they c o u l d g e t a job; t h e r e weren't t h a t many jobs, u s u a l l y they
j u s t stayed around a t home and worked.
"Well what was pay i n a f a c t o r y , l e t ' s say i f you were working i n
a lumber m i l l o r something as opposed t o what you were g e t t i n g as
a t e a c h e r ? " There weren't so many lumber m i l l s open i n those days;
they p a i d very l i t t l e . I know I was out of work one year as a
t e a c h e r . I worked f o r a week i n a lumber m i l l . They p a i d me a
d o l l a r a day and I had t o take i n the lumber. I c o u l d n ' t see any
future i n t h a t — I quit.
"What was the economy i n t h i s area?
What i n d u s t r i e s f l o u r i s h e d
then?"
There weren't much, t h i s was d u r i n q the d e p r e s s i o n I'm
t a l k i n q a b o u t — a b o u t 1930 on, you see, t i l l the war broke out. "So
the $700 you were makinq a year was q u i t e a b i t ? " Jobs were almost
n o n - e x i s t e n t . Some o f t h e o l d e r q i r l s would qet a job doinq
housework f o r $10-15 a month, and they'd b o a r d — a n d they'd take i t
too. "So t h i s was j u s t t h e farminq community t h e r e was no other
t h r i v i n q i n d u s t r y ? " No, t h e r e were j u s t a few i n town, you know,
of course t h e r e were a few jobs i n town, not very many. There
weren't as many sawmills as t h e r e a r e now, I don't t h i n k ; and what
t h e r e were were small and none o f them had any money. I f you went
t o work f o r them you had t o qet p a i d f o r a l l t h a t lumber.
"So
t e a c h i n q was one o f t h e b e t t e r p a i d p r o f e s s i o n s ? "
That's what
everybody seemed t o t h i n k , except t h e t e a c h e r s . They a l l thouqht we
were r i c h cause we q o t a cheque once a month; some o f us d i d n ' t get
i t f o r t h r e e months. "You're always h e a r i n q about the town o f
Athabasca was supposed t o have been the c a p i t a l of A l b e r t a and so
on and i t was c u t o f f by a r a i l w a y cominq on one s i d e and t h e
highway on t h e other s i d e ? " W e l l , they had b i g ideas about i t when
•there i t was formed but I don't t h i n k anyone ever s a i d i t was gonna
be t h e c a p i t a l because t h e c a p i t a l was a l r e a d y s e t t l e d long b e f o r e
Athabasca had a r a i l w a y even. But what they thought was t h a t they
were going t o have a c i t y ; they thought i t was about t h e r i g h t
d i s t a n c e t o have another c i t y i n Athabasca. And t h e r e was a b i g
Athabasca land boom—I don't know i f you ever heard of t h a t — i t was
back about..I was p r e t t y small when t h a t happened; I don't remember
i t but I qot t o l d about i t . Land, f o r l i t t l e farms around f o r as
f a r as t h r e e m i l e s from Athabasca, they were payinq f a n t a s t i c
p r i c e s f o r t h i s and t h e r e used t o be a map i n t h e town h a l l , I
don't know i f i t ' s t h e r e now or not, showing t h e town of Athabasca
about f i v e times t h e s i z e i t i s now. S t r e e t c a r l i n e s running out
t o B a p t i s t e Lake, a l l over.
"And how about t h i s b i g f i r e t h a t was
supposed t o have c u t down the p o p u l a t i o n ? "
I don't know about
t h a t — i t was j u s t something I h e a r d — I was a p r e t t y l i t t l e k i d
then. "What was t h e a d m i n i s t r a t i o n l i k e , l e t ' s say f o r e d u c a t i o n :
d i d you have your s c h o o l board and your county?" Each d i s t r i c t had

t h r e e t r u s t r e e s and a s e c r e t a r y . Each l i t t l e d i s t r i c t , t h a t i s ,
approximately f o u r m i l e s squared.
"And they c o l l e c t e d taxes from
the people around?"
They would c o l l e c t taxes and.."On a v o l u n t a r y
b a s i s ? " Oh no, no. Everybody was assessed and they had t o pay the
taxes.
"Yeah I t a l k e d t o Mrs. Donahue and she t o l d me t h a t the
t r u s t e e s r e a l l y pushed you on how you dressed and how neat you were
and t h i n g s l i k e t h i s ? " Oh i t never bother me very much anyway, of
course I was b i g g e r i n those days. I d i d n ' t t r y t o s c a r e anybody
b u t . . . I wasn't as b i g as I am now but I was i n p r e t t y good shape.
"Did t h e community and s c h o o l g e t along?" Mostly yes, you know. I
taught one s c h o o l where I c o u l d n ' t g e t along with the t r u s t e e s ,
w i t h two o f them; and the other one wasn't the m a j o r i t y so I was
out o f l u c k , but mostly you get along with them. "Who g o t t o be a
t r u s t e e : the r i c h e s t
farmer, the guy t h a t owned the most land?"
U s u a l l y the guy t h a t t a l k e d the most . . . t h a t ' s the main reason they
have t h e annual meeting. No, they qot some p r e t t y qood t r u s t e e s but
then o f course sometimes they'd get some bad ones and they'd have
a l l k i n d s of t r o u b l e — h a v e about s i x t e a c h e r s i n t h r e e years o r
something l i k e t h a t i n the s c h o o l . J u s t l i k e i t i s now, people l o s e
i n t e r e s t once somebody gets c o n t r o l of i t and i t wasn't very good.
Then a f t e r t h i n g s got i n a mess then everybody would say w e l l we'd
b e t t e r have a look a t the end of t h i s t h i n g and have a b i g meeting
and f i r e the s c h o o l board and g e t another one.
"These t r u s t e e s were e l e c t e d every year o r every two y e a r s ? " One
was e l e c t e d every year so they always had t h r e e then they'd employ
somebody t o a c t as s e c r e t a r y . But he was supposed t o c o l l e c t the
t a x e s . "For your d i s t r i c t , you had your t h r e e t r u s t e e s , your
s e c r e t a r y and your teacher i n the s c h o o l ; your teacher, p r i n c i p a l ,
j a n i t o r . . . . " W e l l , the s e c r e t a r y was j u s t a farmer; he l i v e d
somewhere i n the d i s t r i c t . As f a r as the teacher was concerned, you
were s o l e l y i n charge o f e v e r y t h i n g . There'd be nobody around f o r
a l l t h e time you were running the s c h o o l ; except the i n s p e c t o r
who'd come once a year, twice a year i f you weren't doing so good.
"You had one i n s p e c t o r f o r the whole..?" One f o r the whole...what
they c a l l the Athabasca i n s p e c t o r a t e i n those days, they changed
them t o d i v i s i o n s ,
but they
changed
i t t o superintendent
a f t e r w a r d s ; i t was the same k i n d o f t h i n g . You never knew when he
was coming except I know when the roads were bad, he did^come then.
"What were the textbooks l i k e ? Were they very developed o r were
they b a s i c and the t e a c h e r d i d the r e s t ? "
"Did you have any
textbooks a t a l l ? " Textbooks. W e l l , they were very s t a n d a r d i z e d as
f a r as some s u b j e c t s were concerned. You had s t a n d a r d i z e d r e a d i n g
r i g h t up t o grade e i g h t . I f o r g e t what the names o f the books were
but they were, you know, you went t o the next grade you qot the
next book and t h a t was your l i t e r a t u r e book and your r e a d i n q book.
"Was t h e t e x t book the major educator o r was the t e a c h e r ? " Yeah, of
course t h e t e a c h e r , I don't see how he c o u l d h e l p i t , a f t e r a few
y e a r s knew these books without l o o k i n q a t them. Some o f the
b r i g h t e r p u p i l s d i d t o o . And then they had standard t e x t books f o r
h i s t o r y , and geography which we taught s e p a r a t e l y out o f s o c i a l

s t u d i e s . Standard a r i t h m e t i c , hadn't got i t t o be c a l l e d i t
mathematics y e t because they d i d n ' t b r i n g out geometry u n t i l a few
y e a r s l a t e r , u n t i l they got t o grade n i n e , h i g h s c h o o l . "Was t h e r e
any a l l o c a t e d time you had t o spend on each s u b j e c t , was i t the
teachers...?"
J u s t as much as you thought you needed t o . "You
mentioned h i s t o r y , what d i d you teach? D i d you teach the h i s t o r y of
your d i s t r i c t o r t h e Athabasca area o r a l l of Canada?"
No, we
s t a r t e d w i t h h i s t o r y o f Canada, we had a good h i s t o r y o f C a n a d a —
I've never seen anything g u i t e as good as t h a t s i n c e — i t was a
l i t t l e textbook but i t s t a r t e d r i g h t i n t h e very beginning from t h e
when t h e f i r s t e x p l o r e r s , the French e x p l o r e r s , c a r r i e d r i g h t
through t o whatever t h e date was t h a t i t was f i n i s h e d . . i t was a
good book. I wish I had one of those cause nowadays I don't b e l i e v e
they t e a c h Canadian h i s t o r y ever s i n c e .
"How about knowledge of
other c o u n t r i e s , d i d you go i n t o t h a t ? " Yes, w e l l , then we
had..that was a l l t h e h i s t o r y t h a t they took i n t h e p u b l i c s c h o o l —
i n f a c t , you d i d n ' t g e t t h a t u n t i l grade seven o r e i g h t — a n d then
i n h i g h s c h o o l you got t h e o t h e r s : t h e h i s t o r y of the B r i t i s h , t h e
h i s t o r y o f England, and t h e h i s t o r y o f a n c i e n t times (but I t h i n k
t h a t came f i r s t , h i s t o r y o f a n c i e n t t i m e s — A n c i e n t H i s t o r y i n grade
n i n e , H i s t o r y o f England i n grade t e n and grade 12, I know they
went back t o World h i s t o r y r i g h t up t i l l present time.
"You know you s a i d t h e B r i t i s h , was t h e d e v o t i o n t o England very
h i g h ? " You mean, t h e p r o p o r t i o n o f p u p i l s ? "No, you know, t h e
d e v o t i o n people had t o England, the p a t r i o t i s m . " I imagine people
thought about i t more then than they do now. I mean we had t h e
U . i f M p r \ .Jack was o u t T f l a g , you know. "Were you a Canadian o r were you an
Englishman?" Oh I t h i n k most people were. I was born i n Canada and
I know i t meant more t o me t o be a Canadian; I never thought of
myself as being E n g l i s h although my parents were. They d i d n ' t t h i n k
of themselves as E n g l i s h a f t e r they'd been here f o r f o r t y o r f i f t y
y e a r s . "How about t h e American i n f l u e n c e ? " They weren't n o t i c e d
very much, o f course we thought i t was g r e a t t o p i c k up "Amos and
Andy" from S a l t Lake C i t y o r Denver o r some p l a c e . " I t was a r a d i o
show?" Yeah. Uh, we were more conscious o f what happened i n the
s t a t e s th^n we were maybe of what happened i n Canada you know. When
you're younger you don't worry about i t t o o much. Mostly we were
t h i n k i n g about what happened here and now.
"How about t e l l i n g me something about governments and so on, t h e
f s t a t u r e and so on?" W e l l , t h a t was j u s t about t h e time t h e S o c i a l
C r e d i t came i n . Those days were g r e a t days. And they came i n so
s t r o n g t h a t n e a r l y everybody s a i d they voted f o r them afterwards
even i f they hadn't. A gentleman named Mr. flberhart was t h e f i r s t
S o c i a l C r e d i t premier; he had been an e v a n g e l i s t and had t h i s b i b l e
i n s t i t u t e i n C a l g a r y and I used t o l i s t e n t o him on the r a d i o some
years b e f o r e and I thought he was k i n d o f a n u t — a f t e r t h i n g s were
so bad, a c t u a l l y e c o n o m i c a l l y i t was so bad. "They came i n t o power
d u r i n g t h e . . . " e v e r y t h i n g seemed t o make sense, you know, he s a i d
w e l l why shouldn't we t r y t h i s , nothing e l s e was any good anyway.
" I t was t h e d e p r e s s i o n t h a t gave him the power, wasn't i t ? " Yes, i t

was so bad, everybody was r e a l l y up a g a i n s t him. "How about now,
you know, A l b e r t a we know turned S o c i a l C r e d i t , but was
this
d i s t r i c t predominantly S o c i a l C r e d i t t o o ? "
Oh yes, yes, I t h i n k
they p r e t t y w e l l almost had S o c i a l C r e d i t members up u n t i l the l a s t
few y e a r s . I t was p r e t t y s t r o n g a l l over the p r o v i n c e . I don't know
what e l s e I can t e l l you..the roads were t e r r i b l e i n those days
compared t o now, you d i d n ' t have any g r a v e l roads, the highway, No.
2 highway was made of e i t h e r d i r t o r mud whichever happened t o be;
i f i t r a i n e d and i t was j u s t the r i g h t c o n s i s t e n c y you'd d r i v e
along and i t would r o l l up on your wheels u n t i l i t you'd s t o p —
i t ' d j u s t be plugged. "When d i d t h i n g s s t a r t changing, l i k e when
d i d they spend more money on education, on roads?" Oh i t was d u r i n g
the war, they s t a r t e d , they g r a v e l l e d the road f i r s t d u r i n g the
war; t h a t ' s when they were p u t t i n g t h i s road through t o A l a s k a , you
see. I guess the Americans p a i d f o r i t , I don't know; nobody ever
seemed t o know, i t was g r a v e l a l l of a sudden anyway. "And a f t e r
the war t h i n g s went u p h i l l eh, l i k e more money on e d u c a t i o n and
p u b l i c works?" Yes, e v e r y t h i n g has been going up ever s i n c e , p r e t t y
w e l l . Wages have. I know when I came back from the war they o f f e r e d
me $1500 t o t e a c h i n Athabasca and I thought i t sounded p r e t t y good
but i t r e a l l y d i d n ' t sound l i k e enough. W i t h i n two or t h r e e years
they were paying two or t h r e e thousand. "So can you g i v e us a
comparison between the pre-war p e r i o d and the post-war p e r i o d ? "
W e l l , the top t e a c h e r ' s s a l a r y i n t h i s d i s t r i c t I doubt would have
been over a thousand d o l l a r s , even f o r the p r i n c i p a l of the s c h o o l
board i n Athabasca; maybe i t would have been as much as $1200 but
not much more. "That's b e f o r e the war?" Before the war.
"And
a f t e r ? " A f t e r w e l l , you know what's been going on ever s i n c e . "Well
l i k e not o n l y wages but..."
I t p r e t t y w e l l doubled d u r i n g the war
and a f t e r the war i t was j u s t about doubled, you see, $1500 would
have been twice what I'd. have been g e t t i n g a t Tawatinaw, although
I was g e t t i n g more a t t h e ^ y ^ v i l l e . " C a r T ' t e l l us more than j u s t the
wages, l i k e how farming was, how i n d u s t r i e s were b u i l t ? "
Well, I
can t e l l you about Athabasca. About 1936 you'd d r i v e i n from the
e a s t on a Saturday morning you get a r i d e with a farmer, we'd be on
a s l e i g h and he'd be h a u l i n g something down t o s e l l , maybe a l o a d
of g r a i n o r something. When you come over the h i l l t h e r e ' d be j u s t
a b i g c l o u d of smoke because everybody i n Athabasca burned e i t h e r
wood or c o a l i n those days. There'd be no, the s t r e e t s were covered
i n snow, t h i s was w i n t e r time and t h e r e were no c a r s on the s t r e e t s
at a l l , j u s t a whole s t r i n g of...oh t h e r e were l i t t l e s l e i g h s , b i g
s l e i g h s and what they c a l l e d cabooses, with a s h e l t e r over them and
a l i t t l e stove i n s i d e with smoke coming out of the stove p i p e . And
you saw a l l t h a t . You might once i n a w h i l e see a dog team but not
very o f t e n . J u s t about every Saturday you'd see a dog team a c r o s s
the r i v e r . They used t o c r o s s the r i v e r r i g h t by the town on the
i c e . "Yeah r i g h t a c r o s s from where Revelstoke, you'd have t h a t . "
That's r i g h t , they used t o have the f e r r y t h e r e i n the summer and
the l i t t l e cage when they d i d n ' t run the f e r r y which you used t o
have t o c l i m b up and i n t o t h i s cage and they'd take you a c r o s s . I f
a farmer had t o get h i s p i g * t h e r e , he took h i s pigs a c r o s s one a t a
time.
L

"You mentioned you had a c a r , was i t a model T, Ford?"
I had a
model A Ford 1929 model. "How much would a c a r l i k e t h a t c o s t new
at t h a t time?" Oh i t c o s t me second hand, I bought i t about 1932
I guess, i t c o s t me $300 and i n p r e t t y good shape too. "How o l d was
i t then?" W e l l , i t c o u l d n ' t be very o l d , i t had been used a l o t
though. "A c a r was a l u x u r y back then, wasn't i t ? " Pardon. "A c a r
was a l u x u r y ? " "A luxury item, l i k e a c o l o u r t v , probably." Yes,
f o r g u i t e a long time a f t e r t h a t , I know when I taught i n t h i s
d i s t r i c t t h e r e was o n l y one other c a r i n t h e d i s t r i c t so i f anybody
got s i c k and they c o u l d n ' t g e t him t o go they'd come and g e t me t o
take them t o town. "So where d i d you g e t your gas, I'm sure f o r
t h i s area f o r two c a r s they c o u l d n ' t have a nearby gas pump?"
There were garages i n town you know. "What was the p r i c e o f gas?"
I t wasn't t h a t much d i f f e r e n t than i t was here u n t i l a l i t t l e while
ago, i t was around f o r t y cents a g a l l o n . "That's expensive?" Yeah,
of course t h e r e was always a t a x on g a s o l i n e anyway. "Even i n the
'30s i t was about f o r t y cents a g a l l o n ? " You c o u l d f i n d cheaper
gas, sometimes; two o r t h r e e g a l l o n s f o r a d o l l a r but you might
have water you know...you had t o watch out. "I imagine r i g h t a f t e r
the war t h e p r i c e s went down too." I t wasn't t h a t b i g a change, see
a l l through the war they had p r i c e s a l l under c o n t r o l — t h e y
wouldn't a l l o w anyone t o change p r i c e s . They kept t h e c o n t r o l s on
a f t e r t h e war, f o r g u i t e a w h i l e ; then they g r a d u a l l y took them o f f
and as they d i d t h i n g s went up. There wasn't a b i g jump a l l of a
sudden; we have b i g g e r jumps here. Nobody t a l k e d about i n f l a t i o n
much u n t i l about t e n years ago and i t seemed t o be g e t t i n g worse
a l l t h e time, you know. You guys have got t o do something about
t h a t . "Can you g i v e us a d e s c r i p t i o n — l i k e you were brought up on
a f a r m — o f farm l i f e ? " I can t e l l about our farm l i f e . We, I guess
you'd have t o say i t was j u s t past the homesis(?) stage because my
dad had taken i t as a homestead. I t was A l p i n e Creek, e a s t o f
Athabasca.
Note: E v e r y t h i n g i n q u o t a t i o n s were e i t h e r q u e s t i o n s o r statements
made by t h e i n t e r v i e w e r s . ( e n d of s i d e A)

You s t a r t e d to f e e l l o s t because t h e r e were t h r e e s e c t i o n s t o i t o r
maybe d i v i d e d and some of i t were d i v i d e d i t i n t o rooms t o o . There
was a b i g l i v i n g room, a b i g k i t c h e n , and a t the other end were
bedrooms; and I don't remember how many, I t h i n k we k i n d of a l l
had one b i g bedroom and d i v i d e d i t o f f . "That was b u i l t by
y o u r s e l f ? " That was b u i l t by my f a t h e r out of l o g s you know. I
can't remember much e l s e about i t except the creek because we were
always going down t h e r e and c a t c h i n g f i s h and I was always f a l l i n g
i n as I was only f i v e or s i x years o l d . "Your f a t h e r , was i t your
g r a n d f a t h e r t h a t came, or was i t your f a t h e r t h a t b u i l t i t ? " No, my
f a t h e r . We stayed t h e r e u n t i l 1917, I'd have been seven years o l d
then and t h a t ' s when we l e f t the homestead. "And then you moved t o
the c i t y ? " Yeah, w e l l we d i d n ' t have of course...we had c o a l or
( i c e ? ) ; never thought of e l e c t r i c i t y or anything l i k e t h a t . "Which
c i t y were you i n ? " The n e a r e s t c i t y ? "No, where d i d you move a f t e r
the homestead?" We moved t o V i c t o r i a , B.C. "What was c i t y l i f e l i k e
then?" W e l l . - i t was a l i t t l e c o n f u s i n g t o me t o go t o a s c h o o l ,
where t h e r e was more than one room and a bunch of t e a c h e r s , you
know. I was awful s c a r e d of the p r i n c i p a l because I'd been t o l d
what p r i n c i p a l s d i d t o you. A c t u a l l y I wasn't t h e r e v e r y long
because my dad got a job which took him away from home so mother
thought she'd l i k e t o go back t e a c h i n g again. She c o u l d n ' t get a
job i n B.C., so she wrote t o A l b e r t a and they s a i d sure, come on,
we need you; so she came back. We were o n l y i n B.C. about a year.
"Did
you n o t i c e the d i f f e r e n c e between the c i t y students and the
town s t u d e n t s , and what they're i n t e r e s t e d i n ? " No, I d i d n ' t
r e a l l y . A c t u a l l y I'd l e a r n e d t o read and w r i t e a t home b e f o r e I
ever went t o s c h o o l , you know. I had a l i t t l e reader t h e r e and my
dad had gone away t o work and before he went he s a i d you read t h a t
when I came back I ' l l g i v e you a q u a r t e r . So before he got i n the
house I had met him down the road and I s t a r t e d t o read. He never
d i d l e t me f i n i s h .
"What importance d i d r e l i g i o n p l a y t h a t time?" Oh, t o us t h e r e , i t
was j u s t the s o c i a l aspect of i t more than anything. There was a
church t h e r e I remember. We used t o go; we c o u l d e i t h e r walk or
take the oxen and the neighbours a l l seemed t o g o — I don't know
whether they a l l belonged t o the same church or whether they j u s t
went because t h e r e was no other church. I remember we had p i c n i c s
and t h i n g s l i k e t h a t . "So r e a l l y , i t was
more of a s o c i a l
g a t h e r i n g ? " That's what i t seemed l i k e t o me l i k e i t used t o be.
"That was the U n i t e d or A n g l i c a n church?" That was the A n g l i c a n
church. And t h a t was the only church around. Now i n town I guess
t h e r e were other churches.
"Were t h e r e mostly E n g l i s h l i v i n g around here?" Well Jphere were a
mix of people a l l over, or i t seemed l i k e i t . T h e r e ^ E n g l i s h and
American, French-Canadians,
a few b l a c k people. "When d i d the
i n f l u x of the people from Amber V a l l e y , the b l a c k community...?" I
guess they were t h e r e a l l the time, as f a r as I know; I mean I

d i d n ' t know much about i t . But, I d i d n ' t remember u n t i l t h e r e was
an o l d gentleman, a b l a c k gentleman, who had l o s t h i s p i g . And h i s
p i g came t o our p l a c e . I don't know how he found out h i s p i g was
t h e r e . My dad probably spread the word around about t h i s s t r a y p i g ,
so he came over t o g e t h i s p i g and he a p o l o g i z e d f o r h i s p i g
coming. We s a i d t h a t d i d n ' t matter. So he took the p i g home; he
t i e d a rope around h i s h i n d l e g and away he went. "How about t h e
U k r a i n i a n community?" W e l l , t h a t was t h e f i r s t time I've ever seen
a b l a c k man a t a l l and i t was k i n d o f a s u r p r i s e t o me. I was
r e a l l y i n t e r e s t e d . Mother had l i v e d i n South A f r i c a o f course i t
was nothing t o her, and she d i d n ' t care who i t was. She got t o p a l
with everybody. So, anyway i n a couple of days here's t h e p i g back
again so t h e man comes, he knows where t o come t h i s t i m e — I wish I
remembered h i s name—he s a i d , Mr. Appleby would you do me a favour?
My dad s a i d , Sure I guess so, what do you want? He s a i d , I want
you t o shoot t h i s p i g so I can butcher i t r i g h t here, do you mind?
He s a i d , I ' l l g i v e you a p i e c e of meat, any p i e c e you want. So my
dad s a i d , F i n e . So they went out and
butchered t h e p i g , they
wouldn't l e t me watch.
"How about t h e U k r a i n i a n community, when d i d they a r r i v e i n the
Athabasca r e g i o n ? " W e l l , when we came back from V i c t o r i a , when my
mother came back t o teach, she went down east o f Edmonton t o a
p l a c e c a l l e d Racevius s c h o o l ( ? ) — n o w i t ' s c l o s e t o Smokey Lake.
Smokey Lake i n those days was j u s t a post o f f i c e and t h a t was a l l
U k r a i n i a n people t h e r e . And we l i v e d among U k r a i n i a n people a f t e r
t h a t f o r about f i f t e e n years I guess. "You n o t i c e d t h a t a l l t h e
b l a c k community l i v e i n Amber V a l l e y , you s a i d t h e U k r a i n i a n
community l i v e d i n t h i s p l a c e by Smokey Lake and so on.." Well they
came t h e r e and s e t t l e d there as they came, you see. But the
U k r a i n i a n people of t h e second g e n e r a t i o n got educated. Those k i d s
would sure work i n s c h o o l too. "What I was wondering was you know
the s e g r e g a t i o n , you f i n d the d i f f e r e n t n a t i o n a l i t i e s l i v e i n
separate p l a c e s . " Well t h a t ' s the way i t was and I imagine s t i l l i s
i n t h a t p a r t of the country, I mean you f i n d p r a c t i c a l l y a l l t h e
U k r a i n i a n people t h e r e , but you f i n d they're g u i t e d i f f e r e n t from
t h e i r a n c e s t o r s . "How do you mean?" Well I mean t h e f i r s t l o t were
s t r i c t l y o l d country; they d i d t h i n g s t h e way they'd always done i n
the o l d country, you know, d i g t h e i r mud ovens, d i d t h e i r cooking
i n them. They r e a l l y were s e l f - s u s t a i n i n g people. They d i d n ' t need
much money o r anything; they l i v e d o f f the l a n d . "But I was
wondering you know, i n t h a t time of homestead, we were always t o l d
t h a t t h e homesteaders you know, communal, i f they were neighbour
would h e l p neighbour and so on. Did each n a t i o n a l i t y j u s t s o r t o f
s t i c k t o g e t h e r and s t a y together o r was i t intermixed?"
W e l l , we
c o u l d n ' t anyway o r we woulda had no f r i e n d s . As f a r as we were
concerned t h e U k r a i n i a n people were f r i e n d s o f neighbours we never
w o r r i e d about. There were some you l i k e d and some you d i d n ' t l i k e ,
l i k e everybody e l s e you know. But t o t h i s day, k i d s I taught a t
s c h o o l look up and see U k r a i n i a n k i d s . Mother, before she d i e d ,
they had h e r hundredth b i r t h d a y p a r t y and two o f her p u p i l s from
t h i s f i r s t s c h o o l came t o i t . "So t h e r e was no c u l t u r a l d i v i s i o n ,

everyone s o r t o f intermixed?" Not s e r i o u s , anyway, not s e r i o u s . You
had t h e language, i t was hard t o communicate because t h e ones t h a t
come from t h e o l d country, the men a l l had t o get out and had t o
get jobs so they a l l l e a r n e d t o speak some E n g l i s h , some learned i t
q u i t e w e l l . But the women d i d n ' t , the women wouldn't speak E n g l i s h .
So u n t i l you l e a r n a few words i n U k r a i n i a n you c o u l d n ' t even
communicate t o buy a dozen eggs or something. N a t u r a l l y you had t o
l e a r n some. "How about n a t i v e s , what was the s i t u a t i o n with the..?"
With t h e Indians? "Yeah, and the white people." I can't r e c a l l ever
having s e e i n g an Indian while I was a youngster. Huh. Well I
suppose I may have but I mean i t was never brought t o my a t t e n t i o n .
I t h i n k i n t h e school we attended t h e r e were some h a l f - b r e e d s . But
they were j u s t l i k e anybody e l s e ; I mean there was never any
d i s t i n c t i o n made. They were g&eds t o p l a y with and t h a t ' s a l l I
cared about. "How was t h e s t r u c t u r e o f t h i n g s , c o u l d you get
t o g e t h e r , d i d you g e t together other than your church a c t i v i t i e s ,
d i d you g e t together f o r . . . ? " Well o f course your s c h o o l was your
community c e n t e r you know, you'd have your school a f f a i r s l i k e
c o n c e r t s and so on and then every now and then f o r some reason o r
f o r no reason they'd have a dance and maybe i f a bunch o f people
had a b i r t h d a y around t h e same time, they'd have a p a r t y t h e r e ; and
you'd have your b a l l games and sometimes another school come over
to p l a y and t h a t was a b i g event. Everybody come t o watch t h a t .
"Can you t h i n k of any dates t h a t anything happened i n t h e county,
you know, j u s t dates and f i g u r e s t h a t you c o u l d g i v e u s . . l i k e when
i t was formed, when c e r t a i n t h i n g s happened?"
Well...I don't
remember, I've never been good with dates, even i n s c h o o l . I c o u l d
understand people not l e a r n i n g dates. I remember a t the Athabasca
s c h o o l d i v i s i o n , t h i s b i g d i v i s i o n was s t a r t e d i n 1938, I remember
t h a t because I was t e a c h i n g a t the time. I don't know when the
county was formed, t h e a c t u a l county i t s e l f ; t h a t was g u i t e not
t h a t long ago r e a l l y , i t was i n the 1950s around t h e r e ^ ^ "Have
t h e r e been any changes l i k e Athabasca now i s the l a r g e s t -oanttor i n
the county t h a t . . . ? " W e l l , Athabasca a l l up there where you have
the h i g h s c h o o l and a l l those r e s i d e n t i a l d i s t r i c t s t h a t was a b a l l
diamond t h e r e r i g h t on t h e t o p of the h i l l , there was nothing e l s e
t h e r e except a shed where they put t h i n g s , s t o r e d b a s k e t b a l l s I
guess o r whatever...there was nothing t h e r e , j u s t you d r i v e up
t h e r e t o p l a y your b a l l games. I t wasn't even graded, w e l l i t was
graded a l i t t l e b i t I guess but i t was a t e r r i f i c h i l l , you had t o
get i n t o low gear t o g e t up t h e r e . "You s a i d b a l l game and so on,
going on t o l e i s u r e , d i d t h e town organize r e c r e a t i o n a l a c t i v i t i e s
or was i t j u s t s o r t of a community t h i n g ? " Well, people d i d i t on
t h e i r own. The town as such d i d n ' t organize f o r them. You g e t out
i f you wanted t o p l a y b a l l ; you'd organize a team and you'd look
around, somebody e l s e would come over with other teams so you'd
have a few games, you know, and sometimes you'd even had a league.
"What was t h e purpose of the town i t s e l f , the government... j u s t f o r
s u p p l i e s and s t u f f ? " Well l i k e people s a i d i t was j u s t t o c o l l e c t
taxes and waste t h e money. But I guess i t was j u s t a l o c a l
government t h a t ' s a l l l o o k i n g a f t e r your s t r e e t s , a l l the other
f a c i l i t i e s the town has t o have. "When d i d t h i n g s l i k e water and

e l e c t r i c i t y and t h i n g s l i k e t h i s get introduced? Telephones?" My
remembrance o f Athabasca...1 guess they d i d n ' t have water except i n
the main p a r t o f the town l i k e around up the s t r e e t where the
I m p e r i a l bank i s and over as f a r as the h o s p i t a l o r maybe a l i t t l e
f u r t h e r i n some o f those houses along t h e r e — t h a t used t o be the
o n l y p l a c e s t h a t had water. "How long ago was t h i s ? " That'd be i n
the
'30s about a t the same time t h a t I was t e a c h i n g t h e r e .
And
a f t e r t h e sewer, and n e a r l y everybody e l s e had t o have w e l l s o r g e t
t h e i r water from somebody e l s e ' s w e l l and they had s e p t i c t a n k s . In
f a c t the town was p r e t t y w e l l p o l l u t e d w i t h s e p t i c tanks because
they had no sewer; everybody b u i l d i n g a new house would put i n a
s e p t i c tank, these l o t s weren't b i g enough f o r t h e m — s o they had
q u i t e a problem. And gas, t h a t hasn't been i n t h a t long, about (oh
yes i t has t o ) about twenty years anyway. "So you put gas i n ? " Not
guite.
Electricity:
everybody
was
fooling
around producing
e l e c t r i c i t y . They had a steam power p l a n t i n the creamery f o r a
long time and they used t o buy wood from the farmers and t h a t was
one way how t o r a i s e some money; take a b i g load of wood t o town
and s e l l them f o r a couple o f d o l l a r s .
"When d i d C a l g a r y power
come t o Athabasca?" Oh C a l g a r y Power, only came i n about seven o r
e i g h t y e a r s ago. Before t h a t t h e r e was Northland U t i l i t i e s ; they
were t h e r e from about 1950's. Before t h a t t h e r e was j u s t d i f f e r e n t
o u t f i t s , k i n d of f l y - b y - n i g h t o u t f i t s , they'd produce the power f o r
a w h i l e then they'd go broke or s e l l out t o somebody but they
d i d n ' t have power over the town u n t i l about 1950 I guess.
"Part o f our p r o j e c t i s l i k e r e a l urban t r a n s i t i o n and s t u f f l i k e
t h i s , can you j u s t compare a r u r a l l i f e s t y l e t o the c i t y l i f e
s t y l e , urban l i f e s t y l e ? " W e l l , I don't t h i n k t h e r e ' s t h a t much
d i f f e r e n c e nowadays. In most r u r a l houses you've got j u s t about a l l
the f a c i l i t i e s you have i n any house i n town; you've got l i g h t ,
water, and your own sewer supply, and y o u ' l l have n a t u r a l gas very
soon i n most farmhouses. And you are so c l o s e t o town, i n f a c t t o
the c i t y f o r t h a t matter. I t ' s a simple matter i f you want t o go
t h e r e f o r any reason, t o get t h e r e . I t h i n k t h a t t h e r e ' s very
l i t t l e d i f f e r e n c e . But I imagine i n s c h o o l now they used t o be,
g u i t e a marked d i f f e r e n c e between country k i d s and town k i d s . I
mean, t h e r e used t o be r i v a l r y and t r o u b l e sometimes w i t h f i g h t i n g
and so on. I imagine they don't now. I should h a r d l y t h i n k so. "But
what were the a c t u a l d i f f e r e n c e s , would everyone i n a c i t y f o r
example...?" Well I found ( t h i s doesn't sound t o o p o l i t e maybe) the
country k i d s have worked a l o t harder than the town k i d s i n s c h o o l
because t h e y ' r e used t o working, i n those days, but now I don't
t h i n k t h e r e ' d be t h a t much d i f f e r e n c e now. "Back then country k i d s ,
where would they end up..they'd end up back on the farms and the
town k i d s back i n . . . ? " Oh no, very few ended up on the farm. I was
thinking
about the s c h o o l s t h a t
I've taught a t t h e r e was
h a r d l y , .you go t o t h a t d i s t r i c t and you t h i n k now who would be here
you know i f you wanted t o look somebody up but n e a r l y a l l of them
were gone, m i l e s away a c r o s s the country somewhere. "Doing what,
doing..?" "You know what I mean, back then when you were i n s c h o o l ,
i f you were a country person i n s c h o o l would you t h i n k o f going

back t o the country and make a l i v i n g ? " Oh, oh, I don't know, they
j u s t spread out a t a l l k i n d s , some of them do fariri jd guess, but I
don't t h i n k very many do. A s m a l l percentage, I imagine. Lot of
them a f t e r w a r d s , l a t e r on, sometimes l i k e t o get back t o the
country a f t e r they've been away f o r a w h i l e . "So once you get i n t o
the c i t y , i t was s o r t of..back", Yeah, t h a t ' s r i g h t . "And once you
get out of s c h o o l i t was s o r t of i n t o the c i t y ? " Nowadays I n o t i c e
e x a c t l y the ones I meet, say they're g e t t i n g a farm, they want t o
buy a farm and get back i n t o the country but.. . f o r the most p a r t
even the k i d s I taught over i n Tawatinaw, I don't t h i n k t h e r e ' s
more than one or two of them l e f t i n the d i s t r i c t . "How d i d
Athabasca county, f e d e r a l l y , l i k e we're t a l k i n g about S o c i a l C r e d i t
p r o v i n c i a l l y , f e d e r a l l y what was t h e . . ? " F e d e r a l l y , oh f o r many
years i t was L i b e r a l . They had a very f i n e o l d gentleman named Joe
Chain who was a member and as long as he wanted the job i t seemed
l i k e he got i t . He's a v e r y f i n e man though, I l i k e d him. "How much
were MLAs or MPs p a i d a t t h a t time?" Pardon. "How much were MPs
p a i d , members of p a r l i a m e n t p a i d ? " Oh I don't know now. They were
supposed t o be p a i d a l o t more than they were. There was a b i g
argument about i t ; they get a l o t of money now. But l i k e everybody
e l s e they a l l want more. I guess they need i t .
"Well, what r o l e
d i d p o l i t i c s p l a y t h e n . . l i k e now you f i n d t h a t p o l i t i c s i s s o r t of
heated and so on where t h e r e ' s r e a l i s s u e s , back then were t h e r e
i s s u e s or was i t any o r d e r ? " "Just the n i c e s t guy won t h e r e ? " You
t h i n k most people were r e a l l y w o r r i e d about p o l i t i c s a l o t ? " "No,
but back then what was the s i t u a t i o n ? " I don't t h i n k they worried
much about i t then e i t h e r except when they wanted t o blame somebody
they blamed the government no matter who the government was, even
i f they voted f o r them and intended t o vote f o r them again they'd
s t i l l blame them. But..no, I don't t h i n k people w o r r i e d about
p o l i t i c s a l l t h a t much. When t h e r e ' s an e l e c t i o n sometimes... but
t h e r e ' s v e r y few t h a t r e a l l y get e x c i t e d over i t , t h e r e ' s a few
t h a t do, maybe more should, but they don't. "Well t h a t ' s about a l l
the q u e s t i o n I have t o ask Mr. Appleby." Well you d i d very w e l l — I
don't know i f I have any more answers anyway. "I was j u s t wondering
i f you had any other sources we c o u l d ask, you know any people t h a t
you f e e l we c o u l d c o n v i n c e . . . ( ? ) ? " I'm not e x a c t l y sure what you
need, but... " J u s t anything on the h i s t o r y of Athabasca i t s e l f . "
The h i s t o r y of Athabasca?
"..the county of Athabasca." Yes, the
county of Athabasca, w e l l . . . I suppose you have an idea of how the
county developed though; the d i f f e r e n t m u n i c i p a l d i s t r i c t s t h a t
made i t up, have you? "Ah, no, I d i d n ' t get t h a t . " See t h e r e were
t h r e e s m a l l m u n i c i p a l d i s t r i c t s : the one out here was
called
Grosmont, and then the one south of Athabasca, t h a t i n c l u d e d
C o l i n t o n and down the l i n e t h e r e Meanook; and then t h e r e was
Nelson, and each one had a...and then t h e r e was one up by Boyle, I
t h i n k t h a t was C a r t i e r , . . . "And those were the o n l y t h r e e d i s t r i c t s
t h a t made up the county?" There were the t h r e e , so then a c r o s s the
r i v e r and t o the n o r t h e a s t of Athabasca, one of those l o c a l
improvement d i s t r i c t s , they were a l l s e p a r a t e l y governed you see,
l i k e Grosmont had..there's f i v e c o u n c i l l o r s I t h i n k i t was..I don't
know..maybe i t was seven, j u s t f o r t h i s l i t t l e d i s t r i c t . They used
v

to f i g u r e i n those days t h a t a man had t o go. . .couldn't go any
f u r t h e r . . .that he c o u l d go with a team of horses, you see, and they
had t h e i r Clad thei^l o f f i c e i n Athabasca then. Nelson had t h e same,
they had seven c o u n c i l l o r s and t h e i r o f f i c e i n Meanook, the other
one was over i n Boyle. They had nothing t o do with each o t h e r a t
a l l . They j u s t made t h e i r own d e c i s i o n s and d i d t h e i r own work,
c o l l e c t t h e i r own taxes and...the l o c a l improvement d i s t r i c t s
a c r o s s t h e r i v e r , they were chosen d i r e c t l y from Edmonton, what
they c a l l t h e . . . I f o r g e t what department i t was but anyway they
sent a man up t o look a f t e r i t , they d i d n ' t have any c o u n c i l l o r s o r
a n y t h i n g . "Do you have any w r i t t e n m a t e r i a l , l i k e o l d textbooks o r
maps o r a n y t h i n g l i k e t h a t ? " I f you have g i v e n me more time t o look
around I might have found something, I don't know. "Well we can
always come back. You know I want some p i c t u r e s and so on o f the
p l a c e around you and take a few o f you o u t s i d e and so on but we're
gonna have t o come back because i t ' s t o o dark f o r any o f i t now."
Come back any time, s u r e , you're welcome. Any time you want t o , and
I might even f i n d you a few o l d p i c t u r e s . I've dug them up f o r
d i f f e r e n t people f o r d i f f e r e n t t h i n g s . I gave some t o t h i s book we
were t a l k i n g about you know, about w i l d s t r a w b e r r i e s ? "We were j u s t
wondering you know, l i k e any o l d textbooks o r anything o f t h a t s o r t
t h a t c o u l d g i v e us an i d e a . "
I o f t e n wished I had a s e t of those
o l d r e a d e r s cause they were r e a l l y something..when I t h i n k back
about them. "Well would you have suggestions f o r anyone we c o u l d
see Mr. Appleby?
You know any of your a s s o c i a t e s a t t h a t time t h a t
would s t i l l be around t h a t we c o u l d t a l k t o ? " Gee, I don't know.
Each one o f these l i t t l e r u r a l s c h o o l s had a l i t t l e l i b r a r y t h a t
was u s u a l l y about the s i z e o f t h a t cupboard t h e r e , but t h e r e were
a l o t o f books i n t h e r e t h a t I would l i k e t o have now.
"Well
t h e r e ' s probably some s t i l l i n t h a t l i b r a r y . "
I surmise they've
s a l v a g e d a l l those l i b r a r i e s and put them somewhere but they were
very, v e r y o l d readers c a l l e d the Alexander readers, then t h e r e was
a new bunch, I f o r g e t what the name o f those was. They were g u i t e
some t h i n g because they had e v e r y t h i n g i n them: poems and s t o r i e s
and a r t i c l e s . "Okay, t h a t ' s g r e a t , Mr. Appleby."
END