Athabasca History AM V Ff>*L Tepj Milk £b fi Donahue, Falconer, Schinkinger, Ewasiuk, Richards E v e r y effort has been t a k e n to ensure t h a t these materials comply w i t h the requirements of copyright clearances a n d appropriate credits. A t h a b a s c a U n i v e r s i t y w i l l attempt to incorporate i n future p r i n t i n g s any corrections w h i c h are c o m m u n i c a t e d t o i t . T h e inclusion of any m a t e r i a l i n this p u b l i c a t i o n is strictly i n accord w i t h the consents obtained a n d A t h a b a s c a U n i v e r s i t y does not authorize or license any further reproduct i o n or use w i t h o u t the consent of the copyright holder. © A t h a b a s c a U n i v e r s i t y 1985 A l l rights reserved Printed in C a n a d a /-^- O c t o b e r the 3 0 t h of events t h a t have t a k e n place i n A t h a b a s c a since the last war. The people t a k i n g p a r t i n the discussion are A l i c e Donahue, N i c k E v a s i u k , T o n y S c h i n k i n g e r , B o b R i c h a r d s a n d F r a n k Falconer. O K . It's all up to y o u , how about g i v i n g us t h a t story about how everybody came i n here w i t h a hat y o u said just before the start of i t . T h e r e were four cars across the river. The possible take off from there w o u l d be t h a t there were four cars but there were lots of horses. T h e r e was a ferry i n a cage. There was no bridge. T h e bridge was b u i l t , w h a t , h 51 or 52? /» 52. although there were very few cars, on S a t u r d a y s the t o w n w o u l d almost be filled w i t h people. E a c h d i s t r i c t h a d a big t r u c k . A three t o n t r u c k , flat b o t t o m w h i c h served as a bus for 25 cents, they brought the people and their produce to t o w n . f T h e y charged for i t , d i d they? Y e s . T h e t r u c k e r s t h a t come to m i n d was C u r t i s from G r o s m o n t , .Krawek- from across the r i v e r , Deep Creek area; P-usiek from L i n c o l n ; Forfar? T h e r e m a y have been others, I can't t h i n k of them off h a n d . W e l l , w h a t I remember, p a r t i c u l a r l y right after the w a r was the fact that all these y o u n g people came back from the service a n d started in businesses either w i t h their fathers or on t h e i r o w n . A n d I'm t h i n k i n g i n terms of Dave H u n t e r , the Preece B r o t h e r s , S t a n R i c h a r d s , N i c k E v a s i u k , of course, a n d myself. A n d we got i n v o l v e d i m m e d i a t e l y i n a l l the organizations i n t o w n , namely the legion, the c u r l i n g c l u b , the - yes J a c k M a c k i e ' s another one - and of course J o h n Stevenson was here. I could probably name quite a few more. B u t we got i n v o l v e d i n the organizations such as the legion, the c u r l i n g c l u b , the b o a r d of trade, and the churches of course, a n d I guess we h a d the idea t h a t we were going to change things a r o u n d real q u i c k l y . W e h a d different ideas, I guess younger ideas, I recall specifically, the chamber of commerce. I know I guess some of us felt t h a t the ones t h a t h a d been i n the a h " B o a r d of T r a d e , I should have said because it was the b o a r d of t r a d e i n those days and we decided t h a t we were going to change the executive a n d get i n v o l v e d i n this B o a r d of T r a d e i n c l u d i n g the business c o m m u n i t y and so o n . W e l l things d o n ' t happen quite as q u i c k l y as we w o u l d have l i k e d t h e m to, y o u k n o w , we t h o u g h t they w o u l d , over the years, I guess it was probably successful even t h o u g h it was a g r a d u a l t h i n g . I suppose t h a t we were probably called the y o u n g Turks^as such because of o u r new modern ideas t h a t we thought we h a d . n 1^ A. [\ T o n y , we w e l c o m e ' y o u . take over. I mean we were glad to see those y o u n g people come i n a n d A n d we t h o u g h t y o u r ideas. Because I remember the board of trade was y o u k n o w , they were sort of, not very active. A n d w h e n y o u fellows came back, y o u h a d lots if ideas and y o u h a d lots of v i m and vigor. B e a u t i f u l wives a n d y o u came into t o w n a n d established homes. ]{, W e l l , 1946, I regard as a r e b i r t h to this t o w n because the t o w n was i n the d o l d r u m s from L o r d k n o w s w h e n , maybe the early 30s because of the depression. T h e r e was - I , L of hose/ remember the first fire we h a d a cart w i t h t w o wheelsyand t h a t was our fire fighting equipment. /} A n d everybody r a n to the fire. /V A n d everybody fell over each other and the fire kept b u r n i n g m a d l y . B u t we came, not healed, we came w i t h new vigor, let's put it that way. A l t h o u g h we d i d n ' t have the money we h a d »rw~ideas. A n d I remember the meeting w h e n B e l l a m y was the president of the B o a r d of T r a d e — s o called at the t i m e — h e chastised us for not s t a r t i n g to b u i l d a c o m m u n i t y centre. A n d t h e n away we went collected grain a n d w h a t n o t , i n devious ways, w i t h o u t any money at a l l , we got the c o m m u n i t y centre started. W e d i d n ' t have a k i t t y to draw on, the t o w n d i d n ' t give us a grant. T h e C o u n t y d i d n ' t give us a grant. F a r m e r s donated the wheat. / j . Somehow they got somehow permission from the government, the elevators d i d . t h a t they could accept their g r a i n , when they t u r n e d it over. (lou Li^pert So we h a d the basement ready. -Pool e/e?atcr) T h a t was i n 49, the basement was i n use. F. It opened on December the 31, 1949. A New Y e a r ' s E v e Dance. / • I've got 47 it went into use. F. N o , no it w a s n ' t open i n 47. S h o u l d be 49. ^ " W a s n ' t even started because I came back here i n 48 a n d it was b u i l t after I got back. 3• A n o t h e r person t h a t we're p r o b a b l y not g i v i n g enough credit to for a lot of the prosperity of the t o w n was G . G . F o w l e r . T h e r e was a m a n t h a t helped a lot of businesses get built u p , he h a d something like 20 sawmills going, y o u k n o w , w h i c h was a nice p a y r o l l for the c o u n t r y . A n d besides, his end of i t — t h e w i n t e r w o r k , there was lots of i t . So t h a t ' s p r o b a b l y w h y our y o u n g people stayed. Because of people like G . G . F o w l e r . He come i n here i n 1938. W a l k e d into this country to establish A t h a b a s c a R i v e r L u m b e r . P u s h e d l u m b e r up the r i v e r against all odds and, but y o u k n o w , he h a d an awful prod u c t i o n c o m i n g out of C a l l i n g L a k e — 4 7 , 46. I know i n 48, he h a d 16 mills at C a l l i n g L a k e alone. /~ W e haven't got very m u c h i n f o r m a t i o n on t h a t B o b , a n d t h a t ' s quite i m p o r t a n t . I t h i n k when I was here first, we used to sell a lot of stuff to sawmills and I t h i n k at one time we h a d 33 saw mills on our books. A s y o u say, F o w l e r d i d an enormous a m o u n t , but t h e n : Imperial L u m b e r , zzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzz; W h i t e l y . A Bissells were here. T W e l l , Bissells were here about 24. Elefsons, Stclkcrsv / -There w a s — t h e biggest promoter of this t o w n was G . G . F o w l e r . A~ • He was a good promoter. en L a n d i n g T r a n s p o r t w a n t e d to b u i l t , y o u k n o w . T h e i r b u i l d i n g was b u r n t a n d they d i d n ' t have the money. A W e l l he b u i l t the F o w l e r B l o c k for the teachers because they couldn't find anyplace to stay. T h e r e was no place for t h e m to board T w o of the girls l i v e d d o w n i n the basement of the F o w l e r b u i l d i n g . I\fWas 50, 51 t h a t t h a t was b u i l t . lyr/\cJ)il£ J c a m e ; Q 5 1 a n ( j t h a t ' s where t h e y l i v e d . 7~~He b u i l t those three houses next to the b a n k there. T There's no d o u b t about i t , G . G . F o w l e r was a real boost to this t o w n as well. I know he financed a house for me. T h a t one t h a t Rogers h a d . M a i n l y cause November 22, 1985 i Athabasca History Eterek Rogers owed h i m quite a bit of money and t h a t was one w a y of getting his money out, so. He financed it for me. / ] / . L u m b e r and fur helped this economy i n those days. /3 W e h a d fishing, we h a d the fur f a r m i n g . /I T h a t ' s r i g h t . F i s h i n g , f u r r i n g and lumber. 7 ^ T h ere were really a lot of things t h a t c o n t r i b u t e d to the economy of A t h a b a s c a . take, M a c i n t o s h there. You M a c i n t o s h c o n t r i b u t e d quite a bit to this area. /Tcommercial fishing at C a l l i n g L a k e . ^ ^ ^ C o m m e r c i a l fishing by the end of the war. T h e i r hey day was probably the late 30s. A n d t h e n t h a t was p r e t t y well closed d o w n . ~T I though^he used to fly some fish out. / F l y t h e m into here then ship t h e m out by t r a i n . F~ Joe J i r w i n s flew his planes. / Joe's still around, y o u k n o w . O h yeah, I t a l k to h i m quite often. He's at Rochester. J$We\\ W a l t e r — t h e pilot t h a t went d o w n w i t h t h a t plane out there, t h a t was after Joe h a d left and t h a t was p r e t t y well the end of the fishing. A s far as C a l l i n g L a k e . Y o u h a d m i n k ranches, t h o u g h . Just a m i n u t e . Y o u ' r e saying something I don't know about. 5 a A pilot t h a t went down? Lha.history/interviews/Donahue Joe ^ r w i n flew M a c k i n t o s h ' s plane, an old Pierce R o b i n . Fellow by the name of W a l t e r K e e l b e x got k i l l e d i n the P e l i c a n M o u n t a i n s here. T h a t was pretty well the end of the bourn flying of fish out of the n o r t h . jx^Jv'^ / 5 . T h a t was after Joe had gone intn t a r nnrvirri Joe of course was m a r r i e d to M a c k i n t o s h ' s daughter. ' W e l l , t h e n , see about t h a t time the big machinery came i n . T h e guys like G l b h m a n . I remember old J o h n — / V ^ A n d d o n ' t forget the 5 per cent government loans to the farmers. F~Yeah, t h a t ' s t r u e . fi/that b u i l t the farmers u p . / " I remember J o h n B y r t u s , o l d J o h n B y r t u s t e l l i n g me t h a t if a m a n cleared one quarter section of l a n d i n his lifetime, t h a t was pretty good. A . W e i l , it w o u l d be by h a n d . / " A n axe and a horse. A n d t h e n this big machinery came i n . G l i s h m a a was probably the first, wasn't he? P r o b a b l y , yeah. r He came i n w h a t , about 47? 46? Glt&h • yY, I'd guess later. I was here before h i m . A n d I got here i n 46. I d o n ' t remember G h s h m a n u n t i l 48 or 47 . A year or two later t h a n I. / ^ T h e r e were other l a n d clearing outfits t h a t came i n too, weren't there? O r was he the only one? t h a t size. He h a d b i g equipment. / " . Y o u remember, B o b , how long it w o u l d take h i m to b r u s h out a quarter? f) Break it? O h , I can remember when he d i d D o n M a C l o o d ' s out there a n d I w o u l d say t h a t probably a week, y o u k n o w , w i t h breakdowns and t h a t , he h a d t w o or three b i g cats. ' M a c h i n e r y started getting available for farmers, it was a slow process, b u t it really. Y o u k n o w , I came back i n 48 a n d we h a d a Massey Harris a n d the big problem was we c o u l d n ' t get enough tractors. T h e y weren't t u r n i n g them out fast enough. And r e t u r n e d soldiers h a d preference over a n y b o d y a n d , the m a n who was the f a r m m a c h i n e r y director for the D e p a r t m e n t of Veterans/affairs was Julius C r a w f o r d , D o y o u remember him? J u l i u s , one of the C r a w f o r d s at C a l l i n g L a k e a n d he started i n Massey Harris w i t h m y father a n d eventually he was p r e t t y high up i n Massey Harris a n d they made h i m director of the f a r m machinery d i v i s i o n of the D e p a r t m e n t of Veteran's Affairs. B u t it was k i n d of laughable, they sent us i n one time a Massey Harris 22 t r a c - t o r w h i c h was very s m a l l . There weren't very m a n y people who w a n t e d a t r a c t o r t h a t small a n d I was u n l o a d i n g it from a box car. It was k i n d of wedged i n . A n d it took me quite a while to unload this 22 t r a c t o r , but finally I got it out o n the r a m p a n d I — W h a t size was i t , F r a n k ? / ^ O h it w o u l d be a 2 plow at the absolute most. A n y w a y , I got this t h i n g wheeled out and I was t a k i n g it over to the machinery lot a n d a guy, S a m Sale, hollered across the street at me a n d he said, ' F r a n k , is t h a t t r a c t o r sold?' a n d I says, ' N o ' . He says, ' I ' l l take i t ! ' y/J ' T h a t was an easy sale, wasn't it? / ^ O h , there were lots of easy sales like t h a t . People were just crazy to get. ~>You d i d n ' t have to sell t h e m . It sold itself. / ^ P e o p l e were crazy to get m a c h i n e r y . / K c a r s were the same. I remember A n d y W o o d , 1951. Cars were still scarce a n d t h e n C h a r l i e F i x got a s h i p m e n t of cars a n d A n d y says, ' G i v e me the key, if t h a t car starts, I'll t a k e i t . ' J u s t like t h a t . B u t , the d e m a n d got met, eventually. /"\ O h yes, Y e a h , by 54, 55 . T h e y took a long t i m e , there was a big d e m a n d b u i l t u p . / , C o u r s e , t h a t w a s n ' t the only t h i n g t h a t was scarce i n those times, a lot of other c o m m o dities were scarce for years after the w a r . f)h\t. /(l.'^-tA-j f , l( ^ A p p l i a n c e s for one. 7~\Appliances, yes. E v e n i n the c l o t h i n g end of i t , we h a d trouble getting goods for several years after the was stopped. /""'Is t h a t right? / • Oil yeah. / V Towels. r-hcU bunch cf W h y w o u l d t h a t be? j U ' ^ " I wonder w h y . /l/»1948 pants like he's w e a r i n g were very m u c h i n vogue. W e couldn't get em u n t i l there was a fire at M c C o s h a m . W e get a phone call from G W G , how m a n y pair of pants, k a k i pants do y o u w a n t , n u m b e r 4007, I believe they were. W e could have h a d all we w a n t e d and I believe y o u r D a d p i c k e d up all he w a n t e d . A l l the dealers got pants. L i k e t h e y were w a t e r stained a n d w h a t n o t . So no problem at a l l . M y suspicion is t h a t suppliers kept stuff back u n t i l thei'Var ?ime p"nces and IftjdO. Bcxittf g t k n o c k e d off. D A t the m i n u t e , I remember very well, we were selling shoes at $3.95; it costs us about $3.00 a pair more or less a n d $3.95 was a sale price i n w a r time /prices a n d .trades b o a r d kept a good eye on t h a t . Immediately, the day after M a c k e n z i e K i n g cancelled the w a r t i m e prices, y o u could get a l l the shoes y o u w a n t e d , all the towels y o u w a n t e d , a l l the underwear y o u w a n t e d at a dollar or 2 an item more. /4~*Now, w h a t year was that? / \ / , A b o u t 48 I believe. 47,48 48, I t h i n k . W a r t i m e prices a n d trade l o a r d got k n o c k e d off. F'-Yeah, t h a t is A/.WPTB. It was the l a n d of plenty the minute those prices were k n o c k e d off. f^LeVs finish up on agriculture. Before we get away from the subject too far because we haven't touched on the clover m a r k e t . H > I t h o u g h t , O h I see. So say w h a t y o u said about the clover m a r k e t before at the start of the tape. f~, I unloaded the first clover t h a t every came into this t o w n . M y father was the M L A . A n d there h a d never been any clover grown. A n d whether he i n i t i a t e d this or whether the p r o v i n c i a l government d i d . B u t clover, of course, doesn't grown i n too m a n y areas too w e l l , a n d somebody asked h i m if he w o u l d b r i n g i n 5 or 10 sacks a n d get some of his friendsto plant this clover a n d see w h a t happens\ ^And I was w o r k i n g a r o u n d the store, £ t h a t w o u l d be i n the 30s, when these sacks, about 10 sacks of clover came i n a n d boy they were heavy. A n d a b u n c h of farmers, he h a d arranged w i t h a bunch of farmers a n d I t h i n k P a u l K-arcrhrk was one because P a u l was one of his best friends. I imagine P a u l w o u l d have been one of the first ones to start growing clover. A n d then it j u s t — b u t of course w h a t really happened was t h a t after the w a r , the prices for clover boomed a n d t h e n the whole t h i n g took off. A n d as y o u say, there was a tremendous influence from George K o d e l k a t t h a t t i m e to encourage people to go into i t . E>\ C l o v e r was raised, but merely j u s t as a—to plow d o w n . Cause I can remember the clover fields, y o u k n o w , y o u c o u l d n ' t see a horse i n . Because y o u h a d to plow t h a t stuff under. B u t t h e n they put so m u c h nitrogen into the soil. ^ . W e l l , no fertilizer, this is w h a t y o u d i d w i t h i t . B u t i n those years t h a t you're t a l k i n g about, y o u r alfalfa really came into the fore a n d probably because the seed setting. Y o u r fields were smaller, y o u r insects were the likes of bees a n d all t h a t . A n d the set was something terrific. Y o u k n o w , y o u heard about somebody m a k i n g a fortune on a five acre p a t c h , especially along the r i v e r . f ^5 A n d along the fence lines or whereever there was b u s h . M a y b e this is. Y o u k n o w , w i t h the l a n d clearing, maybe this defeated the clover m a r k e t here. Cause there is people made literally fortunes on alfalfa. ^ Yes. fj, C l o v e r w a s — w h i t e clover was as high as 56 cents a p o u n d one year. f 56 cents a p o u n d . fl' W e l l , it was n o t h i n g to get 300 dollars an acre for clover.$Y <%(I^ ^ T h e m a r k e t for this clover was the eastern U n i t e d States. A n d apparently clover does f not set seed there. T h e r e were only a few areas and A t h a b a s c a was definitely one of the biggest areas. 1. Some of the Peace R i v e r c o u n t r y . W e l l t h a t petered o u t . D i d n ' t quit setting. I wonder why. J. W e l l , B o b said i t . B i t fields now. $ No bush. A n d s p r a y i n g a n d the like of t h a t . Y o u k i l l off the weeds, y o u k i l l off the flowers, y o u k i l l of t h e — y o u clear the l a n d and its a cycle t h a t y o u . /l/ K i l l e d the prairie chickens, k i l l e d the partridge. ^ S p e a k i n g of bees. I can remember old C h a r l i e P a r k e r . T h a t was his big deal was to boost the honey business i n this c o u n t r y . O f course the two went h a n d i n h a n d , alfalfa and honey. a|. N o t r e a l l y . A l f a l f a was a leaf cutter piece w h i c h d i d not produce honey. raised leaf cutter peas here. N o b o d y ever Is t h a t right? O n l y one f a r m i n S a s k a t c h e w a n raises leaf cutter peas. T h e n w h a t d i d these— These are the things t h a t bred i n old s t u m p s , old trees, under the bark a n d so on. the alfalfa field h a d to be s m a l l and along the bushes. And T a m e bees are good for rape, now t h a t we grow a|ot of rape. T h e r e are honey farmers who are—clover too, the tame bees can do, but not the alfalfa. A n d we still have 2 or 3 good bee farmers i n the area. I'm t h i n k i n g of Semrok a n d B o d d e n . ^ B r a d l e y was one of the B r a d l e y was one, B r a d l e y a n d Mas< Mascheuck. ^ "I t h i n k B r a d l e y was the first. . W e l l they were contemporaries. B r a d l e y operated and M a s c h c u k operated ^ R i g h t after the w a r because I recall one time he h a d a little boiler t h a t he used for heating his honey. A n d he d i d n ' t know how to get water out of his boiler, so I put on an injector on it w h i c h is a mechanical device t h a t puts the water into his boiler. I t h i n k t h a t was the last steam job t h a t I ever d i d . O n m y steam ticket t h a t I h a d when I came back. |\ - Y o u got tickets w h e n y o u were i n the Navy? ^ B r a d l e y was b i g i n clover i n the 30s. He was still operating w h e n I was here. A b o u t 10 years he was o p e r a t i n g . f{. . M i d 50s maybe even 60s. A n d then somebody t o o k over for h i m and he operated for 3 or 4 years. f^- Guess I've often wondered w h a t happened t o B r a d l e y . ^ - T h e y went out to B C . Lives out on the Island. ^| A n d then all this bee business qualified our M L A to go to R i o De Janero to a bee conference. i f fv. N o w N i c k , you're being recorded. It's G o d ' s t r u t h ! L e t ' s go on to some roads, eh? W h e n I first came back here I was k i n d of lost because the roads were so m u c h better. I was used to dirt roads and m a n y times d u r i n g the s u m m e r y o u ' d get s t u c k . H a v e to go to the closest farmer and get hauled out w i t h a team of horses. "J'T T h e r e weren't a hell of a lot of gravel roads, even i n 46 or 47. ^ W h e n d i d the, w h e n d i d the roads j\ . W e d i d n ' t get the C l y d e r o a d u n t i l 1951. It opened. November 22, 1985 Athabasca History ^ W h e n d i d the roads Y e a h the d i r t — t h e highway to E d m o n t o n was not gravelled. It was gravelled, but there were still some p r e t t y rough ^ I ^ d o n ' t t h i n k it was, T o n y , not the one I remember. It was gravelled later. It was gravelled i n , when I came here i n 46. ^ - It was gravelled when I came. It was the old r o a d d o w n i n the valley a n d when they got the new r o a d , of course, they d i d a better job of gravelling. It was a l l sand d o w n a r o u n d Rochester. T h e y d i d n ' t have to do m u c h . D o y o u remember a n y t h i n g about t h a t , Bob? W h e n they started gravelling. W e l l the roads got worse because they started d o w n near M o r i n v i l l e , r e b u i l d i n g . /I ' T h a t ' s right. Y o u k n o w , a n d there was years there t h a t t h a t was the bad end. T h i s end was good. /A A n d t h e n they d i d this last. /^But it was gravelled i n 46, I'm sure it was. O h it was gravelled t h e n , but I remember R o m e o L a b r i e getting stuck on S t . A l b e r t hill in the bus. ^Oh y e a h , but we d i d n ' t have, a l l we h a d was sand. B u t it d i d take me two hours t o go from C l y d e to A t h a b a s c a on a r a i n y d a y , 1947 W h e n the roads got better i n the c o u n t r y around here was w h e n we got, the schools were bussed i n a n d everybody v o t e d for t h e i r schools to close so they w o u l d get gravel on t h e i r roads. Y e a h , I bet t h a t had a lot to do w i t h i t . I'll tell y o u one story, a n d t h a t is t h a t I went d o w n the river w i t h A x e l S m i t h a n d Les C l a r k and we mosied a r o u n d the back woods and ended up at Slave L a k e . A n d m y father came up to Slave L a k e , drove up to pick us up a n d it took us 10 hours to go from Slave L a k e to A t h a b a s c a . Because they were clearing the roads and the tires w o u l d pick up the clay and sooner or later you w o u l d have a solid clay filling between y o u r tire a n d y o u r fender and then y o u w o u l d have t o dig it out. A n d y o u ' d go a mile and y o u ' d dig this out a n d t h a t w o u l d be about 1935, I t h i n k . A n d there was sure no gravel t h e n . E v e n on the m a i n highways. I can tell y o u , even m u c h more recent t h a n t h a t after the w a r . I don't know if y o u peopie ever heard of the M e r i l o t ' s of Island L a k e . W e l l apparently, she came to the h o s p i t a l — t h i s was w h e n M a r t i n H i t c h i & was still the secretary of the h o s p t i a l — c a m e i n to have this b a b y , and M e r i l o t ' s were a G e r m a n f a m i l y apparently from quite—she par- t i c u l a r l y was from a w e a l t h y f a m i l y a n d lived i n the c i t y a l l her life. So they moved out to H o n d o on a homestead out there, of course this was a tremendous change for her a n d she k i n d of went m e n t a l . W h i l e she was i n the h o s p i t a l , a n d she h a d this baby boy, she had, they h a d a lot of trouble w i t h her—she was r u n n i n g away and all this k i n d of stuff. So M a r t i n Hitchitfi went to George Hees a n d he said, George we'd like to get this lady out of the h o s p i t a l cause she's—we're h a v i n g a lot of trouble w i t h her a n d the fact t h a t Hess spoke G e r m a n , they t h o u g h t they m i g h t be better off there. So they took her up to Hesses, I guess the problem was still there because this one day she took the baby and threw it i n the straw pile. So George Hess came into m y d a d a n d he says, T o n y , I'd like to t r y a n d get this lady back home. So D a d says, O K , he said T o n y will t a k e the c a r — and I was just learning to d r i v e , I was maybe 16, 1 7 — a n y w a y so we started off. We loaded up this m a n a n d his wife a n d a baby and we started off west and we got as far as M o r t ' s h i l l . W e made if part w a y up M o r t ' s h i l l a n d t h a t ' s as far as we got i n this o l d car. It was m u d d y and wet a n d so on, we left them off there and they must have w a l k e d . Y o u k n o w , today when I see t h a t M e r i l o t , the son, hey" Y o u k n o w , he must be in his late 30s now, t h a t was the baby boy t h a t was w i t h her at t h a t t i m e . I I d o n ' t k n o w where they are now. /" . It was about 1962, 63 t h a t the roads were b a d . F r o m P u p o l o g i c k ' s , when K r a w e k boy v m a r r i e d a P u p o l o g i c k g i r l , it started r a i n i n g at 9 o'clock so we were gonna get home. W e d i d n ' t get home t i l 6 i n the m o r n i n g . W e l l the gravel was only as far as Swanberg's, a little past Swanberg's. If y o u remember where t h a t was about 8 miles out of t o w n . F r o m then on it was j u s t clay a n d gumbo. Y o u name i t . ^ • I ' l l have to ask V a l Breckenridge w h a t he remembers about when t h a t happened. Well the other t h i n g s , of course, t h a t happened go ahead, y o u were going to say something? \ One of the, I suppose, most i m p o r t a n t things t h a t happened here as far as t r a n s p o r t a t i o n t o A t h a b a s c a was concerned a n d t h a t ws t h a t bypass t h a t went from W e s t l o c k n o r t h , h i g h w a y 44. A n d at the t i m e w h e n it was proposed by the government, we i n the B o a r d of T r a d e , V i n c e Preece was c h a i r m a n of the t r a n s p o r t a t i o n committee a n d I was on it w i t h h i m , we decided w e ' d p u t up a b i g sign d o w n at the C l y d e corner advising people to t a k e the scenic route. W e h a d pictures on the sign, it was quite a big t h i n g . W e b u i l t this sign and W a y n e set it up at C l y d e C o r n e r , just past it o n private prop e r t y , b u t u n f o r t u n a t e l y it d i d n ' t last very long. Somebody, we figured, must have k n o c k e d it d o w n , but the bypass h u r t A t h a b a s c a a lot. f Y e s it d i d . h A n d t h a t was because there was a C a b i n e t minister at W e s t l o c k , wasn't there. / -Yes. ^ T h a t was Jorgenson. ^ ~I j u s t t h i n k t h a t was such a blow to A t h a b a s c a . I - P o l i t i c a l , no d o u b t about i t . j P r i o r to this w h e n we were s t u d y i n g this, we made a t r i p , V i n c e a n d I i n the w i n t e r time took a t r i p from here a n d we measured the highway as far as we could go and we could get as far as F l a t b u s h and we estimated from there on. B u t we measured it a n d there was 14 miles difference on the speedometer t h a t we were using to measure. It is not all t h a t accurate at times. A • • o^'i r\ I t h i n k Cliff a n d George W e l d o n d i d i t . I t h o u g h t they said 12, b u t I suppose they were m a k i n g it sound good. / Sure, speedometers c a n v a r y . A ^ A n d they opened up new c o u n t r y . L i k e F l a t b u s h , Jarvie. /\ B u t t h e n , this was such an easy r o a d to b u i l d w i t h all the sand and gravel. j • O f course the fact t h a t t h a t r o a d was there and was paved so m u c h before ours was, t h a t held up the c o n s t r u c t i o n and p a v i n g of h i g h w a y 2 from here to S m i t h . W e l l , of course the o l d Social C r e d i t government h a d — i t was a southern A l b e r t a movement right from day one. It was a B i b l e belt movement a n d they were getting m u c h m u c h better t r e a t m e n t t h a n n o r t h e r n A l b e r t a was. Once they got everything paved d o w n s o u t h , t h e n they s t a r t e d c o m i n g n o r t h . B u t their v o t i n g strength, say from W e t a s k i w i n s o u t h . U p n o r t h we were mavericks. E v e r y once in a while. I W h a t about i n the t o w n itself, now, as far as t r a n s p o r t a t i o n a n d ouCstreets a n d sidew a l k s a n d stuff. -r / - T h a t ' s getting quite recently t h a t we've gotten done w i t h the streets, isn't i t . Because for a long t i m e our street were not paved, they were well m a i n t a i n e d , W e l l , I m u s t r e m i n d y o u about B o n A m i . T h e grader. W e called it B o n A m i because it w o u l d n ' t scratch. \ . I was r e a d i n g today about George W h a t * W e got an enquiry from the deniological society of George W h a t . A n d George was on the council and he also dragged the roads. T h e y d i d n ' t grade, they dragged, I t h i n k . I remember reading about t h a t . W h a t w o u l d they do? W o u l d they j u s t p u l l a b i g heavy log around? S o m e t h i n g like t h a t . A / " W a s n ' t there a blade? I t h o u g h t there was a blade. / y N o I m e a n d r a g g i n g w i t h horses. Pete M i l l e r d i d the dragging too. He m a y have h a d some steel plates or something. j\ ? Harey-ffirisfrw wat «wp^rin '»nd' TTt f > /if but our j u r i s d i c t i o n ended past B o y l e , G r a s s l a n d , S m i t h was p a r t . much. ft W e d i d n ' t have Lac L a Biche. A Yes we d i d . B. Y e s . /f W e l l m a y b e i n 45, not W e l l , I mean, 45 and some W e h a d L l o y d , we had six trustees. 19 Schools isn't so A , A n d E r i c used to fly i n to F t . M c M u r r a y . M.I was on w i t h E d W a l l i n i u k . E d W a l l i n i u k t o o k y o u dad's place. &> W h e n d a d was o n there, / l / w h o used to fly? A E r i c K l a u s s e n used to fly to F t . M c M u r r a y to supervise the schools. / I / B e c a u s e it was part of the d i v i s i o n or was it - because it's part of his job? A H i s large area. I n s p e c t ^ t C - A n d L a r r y B r o u g t o n was the first superintendent to t a k e over. A < W h e n d i d we separate? $ J u s t prior to the t o w n c o m i n g into i t , I t h i n k . A That's right. f~ Y o u we j u s t sold. I'm t a l k i n g about the school board, we j u s t sold a lot t h a t we owned near Lac L a Biche. t h a t we d i d n ' t know we owned. T u r n e d up i n being i n our posses- sion a n d t h a t was a s u r v i v a l of t h a t old school d i s t r i c t . ALL TALKING. / " T L e t ' s not wander too far, eh? / ^ " W e ' r e not still on the tape, are we? yes y o u are. ^ V Y e s , y o u ' r e g e t t i n g out of c o n t r o l . L e t ' s t a l k about the oil boom. Because t h a t is a big deal. A n d t h a t m u s t have been right i n the early 50s, eh? . N o , 48, 49. A 48, t h a t was. / ^ T h e seismic crews were here i n 48. / T h e y sure were. Cause m y brother was w o r k i n g for W e s t e r n G e o p h y s i c a l . I know w h e n , we s t a r t e d w o r k i n g in the bush and General P e t r o l e u m drilled right i n the same timber. 48. Q W h e n was the influx of people came i n here w i t h the oil? Because we h a d a whole, they only stayed about t w o weeks. 3 W e s t e r n G e o p h y s i c a l came i n , t h e y were here i n 48. / / . W e l l , I remember our school p o p u l a t i o n really soared. / ^ , W e d i d n ' t know w h a t we were going to do w i t h these kids a n d t h e n Kar+ user / . W h e n he was about 18 years of age. fenny, A n d he was there t h e n . I r e m e m b e r 48. 1948, was oil? Leufd , , , HtterT J. tD I r h&bt^ ' / ^ C a r l K a n e was p a r t y chief there w h e n t h e y first came i n . He the one t h a t m a r r i e d L o t tie B r i a n i ? O h , t h a t ' s r i g h t , I heard t h a t name. A R e m e m b e r L o t t i e Brian\? M r s . B r i a n ^ . / " W e l l there were a lot of geophysical crews i n How long d i d t h a t last? T h a t was a b i g economic boost to the d i s t r i c t . A It kept going on and on for a couple of years and even yet its going. 3 T h a t lasted p r o b a b l y for about six i n this area. B Y o u k n o w , of the geophysical and there was all the d r i l l i n g , t h e n there was a l u l l of geop h y s i c a l . A n d then it s t a r t e d up again. I Now,-Catty J o r d a n was a driller. He waoa t o o L p u s h . Ha^gas^wTfrbrjaattie's h u s b a n d . / f ^ I t kept on a n d off. I'd say the peak was only a few years ago. M a y b e 10? T h a t was the peak w h e n we h a d all the pipeline a c t i v i t y and all the. L i k e west of B a p t i s t e L a k e , t h a t was intensive. T h a t was about 10 years ago. /*"\ W e l l , there's another financial boost to the. A n d then of course the other t h i n g too t h a t we've g o t t a m e n t i o n is the installation of gas to all the farms. f~ T h a t was a b i g t h i n g . /I T h a t ' s quite recently. / - T h a t ' s very recent. November 22, 1985 Athabasca History A/. O f course the school's helped. Y o u were t a l k i n g about boost. T h e schools, the h o s p i t a l , the o l d folk's homes. T h e H e a l t h U n i t , they were all boosts. / . W e became a center for, not only education but also for health care. f^Yeah. / • N u r s i n g home now. /4 . It was the center, w a s n ' t it? / It also became a center for retirement. Y o u k n o w , we have a lot of people t h a t came i n off the farms and bought little houses i n t o w n a n d retired here. J\f Boyle got the mills. "7"" U n f o r t u n a t e l y most of t h e m are widows now, but f\ T h e y ' r e r e t i r e d . 7 " W e have a very high p o p u l a t i o n of senior citizens, over 65 p o p u l a t i o n , of course, because of this, because of the A, Y o u ' r e s a y i n g over 65%? / O h , no, I d i d n ' t say, over 65. ^ S a f e t o say t h a t the p r i n c i p a l i n d u s t r y is o l d age pensions? / ^ W e l l , y o u k n o w w h e n I took the census back i n 6 1 , 81, it was j u s t amazing the n u m b e r of residences i n this t o w n where one person l i v e d . A house, one person. T h a t ' s w h y the p o p u l a t i o n i s n ' t anymore. It looks like it s h o u l d be more. h /""'-It s t a r t e d to go up again. It only s h r u n k there one year, t w o years ago. f^' B u t i n those days people l i v e d i n basements, two or three to a house. T w o or three f a m ilies to a house. / " f A b o u t 4 c h i l d r e n is a s t a n d a r d f a m i l y . \> I was just reading to day t h a t 1.4 c h i l d r e n is the average C a n a d i a n f a m i l y now. ^> How do y o u get 1.4 children? ft I d o n ' t know where they get t h a t .4. ]" T h a t was B a r b a r a A m e i l a n d I don't very often read her. f~ S o m e t h i n g we h a v e n ' t mentioned here is fire prevention, hey? /. Protection? /^Protection. / f W e have a sure fire brigade. f\ W e really have. $ B u r n e d a lot of b u i l d i n g s , b u t saved alot of l a n d , t h o u g h . p~. W e l l , y o u k n o w I h a d a fire about 10 years ago, I guess. So help me if t h a t fire h a d been i n E d m o n t o n , t h a t house w o u l d have gone, b u t it wasn't i n E d m o n t o n , it was i n A t h a basca. T h e fire d e p a r t m e n t was there i n about 2 or 3 minutes. Jy I t i m e d t h e m w h e n I was w o r k i n g at the store. A b o u t a m i n u t e a n d a half, t w o at the most. W h e n the t r u c k rolls out. r Y e s we've h a d very good service from our volunteer firemen. /I - I s h o u l d say. / / ! Y o u h a d one in the store, once, d i d n ' t you? Y e a h , it went d o w n . • Just about 49 w h e n I first came back. T h e o l d . / . T h a t was a t o u g h one. It got into the ceiling. / " , S h a v i n g s i n s u l a t i o n . Incidently, t h a t ' s another topic. W h a t we're really w o r k i n g on right now is q u a l i t y of life. A n d t h a t ' s w h a t ' s we're going to end up w i t h . The difference i n the q u a l i t y of life. Before the W a r and t o d a y . A n d its almost unbelievable. Now I 7 ^ W e l l , w h e n y o u t h i n k back on i t , I know I built a little house j u s t over here a n d we d i d n ' t have r u n n i n g water. B o b G a r t e n was h a u l i n g our water. T h e n we h a d our o w n septic system. W e finally d i d get water a n d no sewer for some years. R a i s i n g k i d s , y o u k n o w , s m a l l c h i l d r e n , t h a t ' s a struggle. f~. Soon as I got old enough, I spent an hour a d a y getting wood. ashes out. H a u l i n g it i n , h a u l i n g O n e of the biggest changes i n the q u a l i t y of life as far as the t o w n was concerned was gas. / " f T h e n of course, the next, the t h i n g t h a t really changed the c o u n t r y around was electric i t y . It even changed our eating habits, y o u know? I boarded on farms, a n d m y god, eating was very poor. Salt p o r k , of course it w a s n ' t the best place, b u t , course w i t h electricity, t h e n came refridgeration. f T h e refridgeration was a really big t h i n g w h i c h made a difference i n y o u r eating habits. f\f, P l u m b i n g was impossible w i t h o u t electricity. /f. T h a t ' s r i g h t . ^ . T h e y h a d lots of food a n d it was good, but it was the k i n d t h a t y o u - y o u c o u l d n ' t keep stuff. L i k e meat a n d things. Y o u h a d to either can it or salt i t . / ~ ^ P u t y o u r b u t t e r d o w n the w e l l . //t F o r the last 10 or 15 years m y favourite expression was - W e have the amenities of the c i t y a n d the comforts of a small t o w n . / ' That's true. / / • C a n ' t express it any better. A A n d n o b o d y ever wants to leave A t h a b a s c a once t h e y come. / / , Y o u ' d be surprised at how m a n y y o u n g people are here because they like the comforts of a s m a l l t o w n a n d they do get the amenities of the c i t y a n d I'm t h i n k i n g of y o u r boy, m y boy, W y n t o n i k boys, quite a few. Y o u n g people have come back t o stay. I u n d e r s t a n d Steve Berezan's daughter is a r o u n d . She came back from the c i t y . //• A n d we've made the u n i v e r s i t y people, at least we hope we've introduced A t h a b a s c a to t h e m f a v o u r a b l y so t h a t they t h i n k it's O K . ] O f course the other t h i n g too t h a t has i m p r o v e d considerably is b o t h recreation a n d c u l t u r a l activities. W e h a d , say, right after the w a r . / " . Y e a h , keep going on t h a t , eh? / W e h a d - R i c h a r d H a l l b u i l t his theatre, of course we got movies, eh? got P a r k e r ' s H a l l . P r i o r to t h a t we T h e n , of course the theatre d i d b u r n a n d was replaced, b u t television came i n 59 a n d we finally got a cable - t h a t was when we got a cable system. 1959. f~~, D o n ' t forget the c u r l i n g r i n k and the s k a t i n g r i n k . *~J~ T h e r e was a new s k a t i n g - c u r l i n g r i n k s k a t i n g r i n k b u i l t on the lower fiat area a n d t h e n i n 66 the new one was b u i l t on the south h i l l . Refridgeration. pAnd the s w i m m i n g pool a n d the ~7~~ T h e arena was b u i l t i n 71. W a s n ' t it Bob? ffi I was j u s t saying last n i g h t , when was i t . T- 71 T O c t o b e r 71, B o b . /— A n d since t h e n of course, the s w i m m i n g pool a n d the c u l t u r a l centre. $ A n d the s u r p r i s i n g activities i n these. / ^ O h yeah? \ \ \ t h e n y o u get the y o u n g correspondent over here saying t h a t A t h a b a s c a has n o t h i n g A/And to offer. T h a t ' s f r u s t r a t i n g to us old timers. n W h o says there's n o t h i n g to offer? / l / l n the E c h o . A y o u n g c O h i n the E c h o ft 1r\phoned ho B o b M a c G r e g o r today to tell h i m either shut t h a t guy up or we w o u l d n ' t let P h i m use the archives. I d i d n ' t get B o b , but I'll get h i m . E d i t h and I wer^ t a l k i n g about t h a t . / - . W e l l E d i t h went after me. He's t a l k i n g about this 75 years ago, 50 years ago, 25 years ago. Thing. / / H is w h o l e / a t t i t u d e is $ A c t u a l l y / t h a t could be a very interesting c o l u m n if he w o u l d put somebody who appreci/ ated th/e d i s t r i c t . Y o u n g k n o w , doing t h a t c o l u m n . B u t the way t h a t , y o u k n o w , he doesn't appreciate these old timers, he doesn't appreciate the development. appreciate a n y t h i n g . He doesn't 7 ~ H e t r e a t i n g it as a b i g j o k e . ^ ^ H i s w r i t i n g is atrocious as w e l l . \ W h e r e ' s he come from? f I d o n ' t k now. Y o u ' d w a n t h i m to go into some detail N G r a n t M c E w a n college I believe. / " - A n y w a y s , it's gonna stop. 13 T h a t could be a very interesting c o l u m n . / W a s before, y o u know? 7" B u t P a r t i c u l a r l y if they stick to local news. W h o cares if / - - " . T h e b u i l d i n g of the A l a s k a highway was quite an economic boost to this t o w n too. T h e r e were people w h o got big jobs here t h a t , y o u k n o w , they had just been t h r o u g h the depression. / A n d even, after the h i g h w a y was b u i l t , the subsequent shipments t h a t went t h r o u g h here, y o u k n o w . H u n d r e d s of t r u c k s w i t h w a r goods up to A l a s k a , rolling t h r o u g h here. W e l l , of course, well t i l l the w a r ended i n 45. A E v e n after the w a r for 3 or 4 years we h a d t r u c k s going t h r o u g h , we h a d tourists going t h r o u g h . A n d I remember selling parkas i n J u l y cause they were going to A l a s k a . went t o w o r k for t h e m for 1000 dollars a m o n t h . I remember h i m telling y ^ T h e i r families were here, they lived here a n d t h e y ' d come back a n d b u y a whole b u n c h of clothes before they went back o n to the rigs again. / " " " T h a t developed a lot of farms. W e l l , I d o n ' t k n o w , I t h i n k we've covered most of w h a t I'm interested i n . There's more there. p. T h e t h i n g t h a t I'm interested i n And they went t h a t far, they got o l d , t h e n 1946 came the veterans. T h a t was the r e b i r t h of the t o w n so to speak. N o w , to a large extent, our kids were t a k i n g over. L o o k at the golf course, look at the beautiful job they're doing on the golf course. In the last five or six years. Pl~, O f course there's more money. /\f E x a c t l y . T h e y h a d o p p o r t u n i t y . T h e generation t h a t preceeded 1946 were hampered by the depression. It's not t h a t they lacked ideas. People 5000 years ago h a d ideas. There were J u l i u s Caesars a n d A l e x a n d e r s . A n d /. M o s t of the y o u n g people t h a t came back h a d been away for a while. Y o u k n o w , whether it was 2 years, 5 years or whatever. IV You mean the veterans. N o , I'm t a l k i n g about our sons. A n d t h e n they came back, so the idea was t h a t once they finished school, they d i d n ' t w a n t to stay here, they w a n t e d to go elsewhere, j u s t like we were. So t h e n all of a sudden they decide, well A t h a b a s c a ' s not t h a t b a d , we'll go back. 4/^Maybe the lesson is t h a t y o u have to be away to appreciate i t . Y o u were away from C a n a d a for 2^3 years. C a n a d a never looked so good as w h e n you're away from i t . A n d y o u w a n t e d to get back real fast. X I can imagine d u r i n g w a r times, but tJ. B u t it goes on forever. E a c h era regenerates itself. A n d there's always a'pa'useT One t h i n g for instance t h a t good roads have brought is the d i s t i n c t i o n between f a r m i n g , farmers and t o w n people has disappeared. It used to be t h a t there was a definite - there were t w o classes of people - the ones w h o l i v e d i n the t o w n a n d the ones t h a t lived i n the c o u n t r y . B a s i c a l l y the people i n the c o u n t r y d i d not like the t o w n people because they t h o u g h t they h a d everything soft a n d suddenly / P r o b a b l y some of t h a t resentment even now. T o a very small degree. p~.Yevy small degree. R i g h t now if y o u - probably the president of y o u r golf club is a farmer. O r the president of the c u r l i n g c l u b , they're j u s t as m u c h a part of the t o w n today. T h e boundaries have vanished. / ? , W e l l , I t h i n k y o u r bussing the k i d s has done ^lot. % I /{/ T Y o u r people are m i x i n g . T h e recreation facilities is the biggest mixer, I t h i n k . Because of the bussing of k i d s , there's a good m i x m a t c h . I M o r e t h a n half the people t h a t use our recreation facilities are from out of t o w n . / / - W e l l because of the roads, y o u see. / A t y p i c a l example of w h a t you're saying has been the t o w n relations w i t h the county c o u n c i l . W e ' r e h a v i n g the best relations now w i t h the county council t h a t we ever h a d , but I c a n go back several years ago a n d there was always t h a t resentment between the two councils. T h e c o u n t y council seemed to t h i n k t h a t A t h a b a s c a was getting more t h a n their share as a result of t h a t they were always sort of b u c k i n g this. A / D O y o u w a n t to go back to the 1950s - d i v i s i o n a n d t o w n ft W e ' r e fortunate in t h a t we can get co-operation. I P r a c t i c a l l y all y o u t o w n - all y o u r county councilors now have been educated i n the present system. . Art / » . T h e key, as B o b pointed out, is roads. L i v e , w o u l d not be possible w i t h o u t roads. S w i m v T h e key, as B o b pointed out, is roads. L i v e wc \ m i n g pool w o u l d not be possible w i t h o u t roads Y o u t r a v e l 15 miles. A . W e l l , they come from G r a s s l a n d t o learn to s w i m over there. T h a t ' s about 30 miles a n d it takes half an hour to get here. / - W e were getting some f r o m L a c L a B i c h e . i See w h a t I mean? / ^ • W e b r i n g kids i n from S m i t h . J\ Because of the roads, we '/} T h a t ' s r i g h t . /V W e could go ahead a n d b u i l d these things. One t h i n g led to another. Some of it by design, some of it by accident. B u t the younger generation is t a k i n g advantage of i t . 7 ^ W h a t do y o u t h i n k of the progress on the history book, F r a n k ? A r e y o u satisfied w i t h it? W h a t ' s happening? fI'm not really i n on the inner w o r k i n g s . I've quite a little - I've done some w r i t i n g . y4 B u t t h e n , F r a n k , I d o n ' t know how they can use another 60 tapes.